National Geographic Asteroids Deadly Impact
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"Asteroid: Deadly Impact" |
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When he first came to the high desert, |
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Gene Shoemaker wondered |
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Was the West all explored, |
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mysteries solved? |
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But geologists are taught that truth |
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Step by step he pressed the Earth |
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What Gene Shoemaker found |
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Planet Earth not nearly as safe as |
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It's like being in a hail of bullets |
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They are bullets. |
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These things have hit |
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they will hit the Earth in the future. |
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It will produce a |
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all other known natural disasters |
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Before Gene Shoemaker, |
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One of the most powerful forces |
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and perhaps the |
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This is the story of impact! |
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March 23, 1993: |
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Great telescopes around the world |
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They were peering far into space |
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of the Big Bang at |
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But at one tiny telescope on a |
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three old friends were rummaging in a |
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Five, four, three, two, one, I'm on... |
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Gene Shoemaker, geologist, |
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was looking for rocks |
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That night he and his team |
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a portent of another kind of Big Bang. |
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Comet Shoemaker Levy 9 first appeared |
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It grew into a blazing streak of light |
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By the time it smashed into Jupiter |
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every major telescope |
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The impact unleashed fiery plumes |
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And it raised a terrifying question |
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And what if it did? |
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When we get to something in the |
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hitting the Earth, it'll produce a |
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known natural disasters, |
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In fact, the energy delivered |
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would be like taking all of |
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putting them all in one pile |
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actually, it'd be a little bit |
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Once, scientists had said |
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Now many were shocked; |
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If something sneaks up on us then |
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In fact, today, the most likely |
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The next impact of a mile-sized object |
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will probably happen without |
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The first thing you will know is |
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and see the plume of fire |
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He'd been taught cosmic collisions |
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But Gene Shoemaker likes to make up |
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It was a path that I personally |
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I had to teach myself that the, |
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if, if one really pursues |
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the world is telling us that big |
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What the world told Gene it said most |
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The gaping hole in the Arizona desert, |
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nearly a mile wide, |
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catastrophe falling from the sky |
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There were similar craters |
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But most geologists said they were the |
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formed over eons of time by constant, |
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Nothing this big happened |
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Fiery rocks falling from the sky have |
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long been believed to predict disaster |
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Meteorites have been feared as omens |
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and cherished as |
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For thousands of years they were our |
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mysterious messengers from space. |
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The intrigue they held for |
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still captivates modern scientists. |
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It was inside a meteorite - a Martian |
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that researchers discovered the most |
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of life beyond the Earth. |
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Meteorites are chunks broken |
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When they crash through Earth's |
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So even big ones, |
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usually don't cause |
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Still, if you or your house happen to |
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repairs will be necessary. |
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Tons of meteorites rain |
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most smaller than a pea |
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This fireball was seen |
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by thousands of people along |
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Many were attending high school |
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and some had brought |
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A piece of the meteorite touched down |
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and cratered Michelle Knapp's |
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I was sitting in my house watching TV |
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I heard this loud noise, |
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It was a chunk of stone |
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about the size of a football. |
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They told me the rock was estimated at |
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about as old as the Earth itself |
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The Peekskill meteorite did make |
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but like most meteorites, |
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In 1972, a rock the size of a bus |
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in daylight and was filmed by a |
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There was no impact, confirming |
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that Earth's atmosphere would |
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or break them into |
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What was it, then, that violently shook |
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A blinding fireball exploded over a |
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As far away as England an eerie |
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Two decades passed before scientists |
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to find the site |
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It was an arduous trip |
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but the scientists knew they had |
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the staggering devastation on the |
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Over hundreds of square miles |
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the forest lay flattened |
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The scientists suspected the |
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by a huge meteorite, an asteroid. |
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They set out to unearth it. |
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Long months spent draining the swamps |
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and digging into the |
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For years to come, |
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Tunguska would remain one of the |
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At about the same time, |
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a similar mystery haunted this |
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In the early 1900s Daniel Barringer, |
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found little chunks of |
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He drilled the crater floor in |
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but came up empty handed |
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Geologists weren't surprised, |
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a young Gene Shoemaker was intrigued: |
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It did seem like a |
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It appeared as though the ground |
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Massive beds of rock |
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and thrust violently into the air. |
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The rim was strewn with giant |
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that could only have come |
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flying hundreds of feet in the air. |
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But like all geologists, |
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the most dramatic landscapes took |
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Meteor Crater could not |
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People say, Ah, yes, meteorites |
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We accept that. |
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A chunk that big - I accept that |
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But it was a, it was a, |
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fist-sized stone to a mountain, |
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and, and have a mountain |
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As an undergraduate student, |
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It wasn't part of geology at that time |
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Geologists are the kind of |
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I'd like to see what the process is. |
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I'd like to see it happen then I'd |
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Gene Shoemaker was one geologist |
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lead him to question the fundamental |
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He was in his twenties |
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at the top secret Nevada test site. |
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Here he witnessed a new mechanism |
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It all takes place in utter silence, |
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BAM... and then it's followed with, |
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It's throbbing, I mean, you can feel |
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uh, and, and it's, that's a very |
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Never before had so much energy |
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Could nature do the same? |
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This crater had not taken |
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It was created in an instant. |
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And it reminded Gene |
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It was the largest crater, at the time |
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formed by a shallow, |
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and so, I could go directly from |
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My hunch was that I would go have a |
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and see what the structure was |
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thoroughly mapped and described. |
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And so I didn't know what the |
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By having mapped this first, |
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I was astounded that all of those |
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in the little nuclear crater were |
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including, right down to the |
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Around the crater Gene found |
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rock that had been melted |
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he'd seen these too in Nevada. |
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Some rocks would reveal a newly |
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An intensely squeezed form of quartz |
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that no volcano is |
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In this microscopic sample was encoded |
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wrought by a 100-foot asteroid, |
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hurtling so fast the |
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Gene Shoemaker had found |
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It was the first conclusive proof |
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an affront to centuries of |
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and a challenge even to the |
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Dr. Susan Kieffer once studied |
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One day, Gene said I'm going to show |
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So, he grabbed a, |
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This is my favorite rifle |
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I don't want to see this rifle again, |
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Do you recognize this, Sue? |
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And then Gene told me to shoot the, |
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What happened is it just kicked... |
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The rifle came back |
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and broke my glasses |
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Haven't you ever fired a gun before? |
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And I said, No! |
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Here's Annie Oakley... with her nemesis |
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The ideas that Gene was |
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individual people uncomfortable, |
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but, at a gut level, |
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That was the battle |
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And he, I feel, |
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That's a nice lookin' crater. |
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Sue's lesson was simple |
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a relatively small object traveling |
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a huge hole upon impact, |
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almost completely disintegrate. |
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The mysteries of Tunguska |
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It came from over there, |
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You look up in the sky |
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that's being made by the asteroid |
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and it gets brighter |
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Gene's explanation of Meteor Crater |
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but the reason he studied craters |
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seemed down right crazy. |
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When he was 20 years old, more than |
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Gene had a hunch America |
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And why would you go to the Moon? |
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And who do you send to study the Moon? |
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I was going to do whatever I could do |
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when the time came to be the |
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Can you imagine any greater adventure? |
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I thought, well, |
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Oh, Gene, look, that's good. |
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Uh, I, uh, oh, look at that, I'm ready. |
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Gene dared confide his dream |
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This was, uh, 1951. |
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When we first met, I just thought that |
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That's it. His wife Caroline |
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in dreaming and scheming. |
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What attracted me to you... |
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I think it's your |
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He gets this big smile and, |
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and you know he's just full of joy and |
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Gene has a way of |
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We choose to go to the Moon. |
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In the early sixties, |
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it seemed Gene might actually |
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We choose to go to the Moon |
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not because they are easy, |
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America was going to the moon, |
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and he was already |
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There were many thousands of them on |
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Gene believed they could yield |
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of impact in shaping not only |
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The Moon is this slate |
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The record that we're |
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all of those craters that we see |
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are a record of the, of the flux, |
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uh, of the hail of bullets coming |
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both the Earth and the Moon. |
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If we want to see what a very fresh, |
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when it's first formed, |
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That guy up there. |
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didn't look at the moon that way. |
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They were pitted in a furious race; |
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what mattered to them |
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not what could be |
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There's no question that |
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indeed the astronauts themselves, |
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were not particularly interested |
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Uh, that was not their mission, |
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uh, beat the Russians to the Moon |
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and the farthest thing from |
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some science and |
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But, nevertheless, |
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uh, probably a weirdo by, |
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Gene did not give up in trying to, |
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uh, that doing geology |
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But geology on the |
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Few scientists thought Gene |
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of impact on the Earth, |
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Many believed lunar craters |
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Before Gene got to ride a rocket, |
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he took a fateful trip |
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The Shoemakers were on |
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Gene was eager to come here |
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a 15-mile wide depression |
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to be an ancient volcano. |
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Gene and Carolyn went |
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medieval town of Nordlingen |
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And there Gene came upon the largest |
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St. George's Church, 500 years old, |
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Just looking at the rock made |
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Whoa! Wait a minute. What's this? |
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I think I know what this is because |
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I've seen something like that before. |
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The walls were riddled with glass |
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Gene didn't need a microscope to know |
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He was, was thrilled beyond words and, |
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Just to go along and just admire all, |
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and the formation of a giant |
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incorporated into the cathedral |
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just a very strange and |
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and saying, Ah, yes, you know, |
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The Ries is nearly 20 times |
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It was the first big impact crater |
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which we could prove |
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and that just changed |
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This was impact on an |
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brought on by a mile-wide boulder |
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the landscape 15 million years ago. |
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Suddenly, giant circular scars of impact |
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some were 200 miles wide. |
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Now we really understood there were |
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of course, that meant those big |
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which I was also pretty sure |
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now we had a way of saying, yes, |
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the proof is here, |
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Gene had finally earned the credibility |
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to convince NASA and |
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to establish a program aimed |
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Gene was appointed to run it. |
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Dr. Shoemaker, as the man in charge of |
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what are you telling the astronauts |
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to look for when they |
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Small features of the Moon that will |
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And, of course, we also want them to |
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Gene brought the Apollo astronauts |
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to teach them geology. |
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This seemed to me like a natural place |
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who were gonna go to the Moon |
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In fact, the best place |
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You really get a feel of |
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and everyone of them wanted |
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so they wanted to have a good idea of |
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For added realism, Gene's team blasted |
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not far from his home. |
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There, he participated in the design |
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and tools used on the moon. |
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Gene's youthful dream |
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His vindication as a scientist and his |
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17 seconds and counting... |
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15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9... |
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Engines on, 5, 4, 3, 2, |
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Launch commit. |
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Lift off, we have lift off |
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17, Houston, you are go for orbit, |
00:28:04 |
Uh, no, I've, I, I'm not going |
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Just at the critical time |
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when I could have been standing at the |
00:28:14 |
my adrenal cortex quit, my adrenal |
00:28:18 |
and I knew that that would, uh, uh, |
00:28:21 |
that would just knock me out |
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When you had that idea in your |
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it doesn't go away right away. |
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Gene remained with the lunar program |
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His dream of doing geology on the moon |
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his friend and protégé, |
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Dr. Jack Schmitt, |
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As Gene watched, |
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impact on the moon |
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...job to get down and back up. |
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They just hit rocks, |
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Every rock you looked at. |
00:29:00 |
You pick up a, a rock or look at a, |
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uh, there that's caused |
00:29:07 |
It became clear that the dominant |
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if I go down there, |
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I was immensely pleased |
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but of course, I was wistful, too. |
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but for that failed |
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I'm getting in your back here. |
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I used to have dreams that I, |
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You know, I got to the Moon. |
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Even after, you know, for a long time. |
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I had to go do other things. |
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His feet would never leave the ground, |
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but Gene was intent on making |
00:30:18 |
He'd found the scars of impacts |
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Now, he'd be one of the very first to |
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out there that might strike |
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It was an obscure, |
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nightlong drives to an |
00:30:39 |
But, in time Gene found a |
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and companion for the road |
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a housewife who decided she, too, |
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For Gene, it was a journey |
00:31:07 |
to new dreams and adventures. |
00:31:14 |
I had some real misgivings |
00:31:18 |
that I'm going to go to Palomar |
00:31:21 |
all night long and observe. |
00:31:26 |
Because I'd never stayed |
00:31:29 |
It was kind of a surprise to me |
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that I really loved the observing. |
00:31:36 |
I could, if I was very busy, |
00:31:42 |
In the early morning hours |
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the Shoemakers would wend their |
00:31:47 |
home to what was then the most |
00:31:51 |
The 200 inch Hale was the temple |
00:31:55 |
it was called the Big Eye, |
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and was not designed |
00:32:00 |
In fact, before Gene came along, |
00:32:02 |
no one here or anywhere else |
00:32:05 |
asteroids that could hit the Earth. |
00:32:09 |
Down the slope from the Big Eye |
00:32:13 |
that was virtually unused. |
00:32:15 |
The Little Eye was just |
00:32:19 |
This is kind of suited to our, |
00:32:22 |
a level that we, |
00:32:25 |
and that's basically the |
00:32:30 |
It turned out to be a perfect |
00:32:38 |
Compared with the giant up the slope, |
00:32:40 |
the Little Eye did not look far |
00:32:45 |
It was ideal for patrolling the inner |
00:32:52 |
Most astronomers saw the solar system |
00:32:55 |
of planets orbiting the sun. |
00:32:58 |
They paid little attention to the |
00:33:02 |
chunks of iron and rock left over from |
00:33:08 |
Most of them orbit harmlessly between |
00:33:14 |
But if an asteroid veered out of |
00:33:16 |
into one that cuts across the path |
00:33:20 |
it would be anything but harmless. |
00:33:26 |
Most scientists believed that |
00:33:27 |
asteroids almost never |
00:33:32 |
Were the Shoemakers searching |
00:33:36 |
The answer would not come easily. |
00:33:41 |
Asteroids look so small on film |
00:33:43 |
that Carolyn had to look for |
00:33:46 |
Even then, they would be almost |
00:33:55 |
But slowly, they emerged from the dark |
00:33:59 |
Since they're so much closer to |
00:34:02 |
they seemed to streak through the sky. |
00:34:07 |
In 1989, other astronomers captured |
00:34:12 |
asteroid using a giant radar dish. |
00:34:17 |
This huge rock was |
00:34:25 |
Later radar images showed even more |
00:34:29 |
mountains tumbling through space. |
00:34:34 |
Toutatis... a giant boulder doing |
00:34:39 |
regularly cuts across the |
00:34:44 |
951 Gaspara |
00:34:46 |
first of only two asteroids ever to be |
00:34:50 |
is as large as the island |
00:34:58 |
243 ID A is more than twice as large. |
00:35:02 |
Like Gaspara, |
00:35:05 |
But if it were, it could blast a hole |
00:35:13 |
Gene didn't make it to the moon, |
00:35:16 |
he's discovered scores |
00:35:26 |
Between them they've found hundreds of |
00:35:29 |
and helped transform |
00:35:34 |
The solar system would never again |
00:35:39 |
The harmony of the planets turned |
00:35:45 |
What we've been able to show, |
00:35:47 |
using this good old telescope |
00:35:51 |
and by seh, concentrating on, |
00:35:53 |
uh, surveying a near |
00:35:56 |
we've been able to show |
00:35:59 |
in its own swarm of asteroids. |
00:36:02 |
These things will hit |
00:36:05 |
they have hit the Earth in the past. |
00:36:07 |
These are the Earth-crossing asteroids. |
00:36:20 |
In the 1980s, |
00:36:23 |
of the terrible threat impact |
00:36:29 |
Deep beneath Mexico's Yucatan |
00:36:34 |
made by a 100 million megaton impact. |
00:36:43 |
It dates to the time, |
00:36:46 |
when two thirds of all living species, |
00:36:48 |
including the dinosaurs, |
00:36:50 |
disappeared from the |
00:36:53 |
On March 22nd, 1989, |
00:36:56 |
an asteroid came within six hours |
00:37:00 |
but was not detected until much later. |
00:37:03 |
Other asteroids have come even closer. |
00:37:06 |
One would have hit the Earth if it had |
00:37:15 |
I don't think that people took the |
00:37:19 |
of impact seriously, uh, in the early |
00:37:24 |
Uh, first of all, it took a while |
00:37:39 |
The news that would change everything |
00:37:41 |
began to break on the |
00:37:46 |
The Shoemakers and their collaborator, |
00:37:49 |
David Levy, decided to take some |
00:37:52 |
despite persistent clouds. |
00:37:55 |
This was not a good night |
00:37:57 |
much less for making |
00:38:03 |
Five, four, three, two, one, open. |
00:38:08 |
Open. I'm on. |
00:38:10 |
I could hardly see the star |
00:38:14 |
because Jupiter was so close |
00:38:17 |
was swamping the eye piece. |
00:38:21 |
45... plus 37, 59... |
00:38:26 |
plus 37, 59... |
00:38:34 |
I started to examine the film, |
00:38:37 |
looking at all the things |
00:38:39 |
the ghost image of Jupiter, and the spikes |
00:38:44 |
when we've got a very bright |
00:38:48 |
And then I started to go |
00:38:54 |
That's a galaxy? |
00:38:58 |
And here was this most unusual |
00:39:02 |
And I thought, It looks like a comet. |
00:39:05 |
It looked like a comet all right, |
00:39:06 |
except it was a comet |
00:39:09 |
Our films don't have enough resolution |
00:39:13 |
are because we're covering a big area |
00:39:16 |
actually quite tiny. |
00:39:16 |
The team called their friend, |
00:39:19 |
who was manning a more |
00:39:22 |
and asked him to check their finding. |
00:39:25 |
He promised to call back as soon as |
00:39:34 |
Well, by now, it's about two hours |
00:39:37 |
I decided the time had come, |
00:39:40 |
Jim had had enough time to take a |
00:39:43 |
and he answered the phone in a voice |
00:39:47 |
and I said, Jim, are you okay? |
00:39:51 |
Uhhh, yes. David, |
00:39:53 |
the sound you heard is me trying |
00:39:59 |
And I said, Do we have a comet? |
00:40:02 |
Boy, do you have a comet. |
00:40:04 |
And he started describing what he saw |
00:40:10 |
to the two of you and every sentence: |
00:40:12 |
It had these five tails, |
00:40:16 |
but, he said, I think there's more. |
00:40:18 |
And, meantime, that music, we had, |
00:40:21 |
we had just had |
00:40:24 |
it was playing in |
00:40:26 |
and the Fourth Movement started |
00:40:30 |
slow little introduction. |
00:40:37 |
As, just as, as Jim said, |
00:40:42 |
then the symphony went |
00:40:52 |
And then, right at that point, |
00:40:59 |
The comet essentially an asteroid |
00:41:03 |
had been torn into several pieces |
00:41:09 |
Of course the big kicker, the, the big |
00:41:15 |
didn't arrive until |
00:41:25 |
Here is this man looking at a |
00:41:30 |
Your comet, with your name on it, |
00:41:33 |
is going to collide |
00:41:35 |
and Gene was sitting there |
00:41:39 |
he was shaking his head and he said, |
00:41:43 |
I'm going to see an |
00:41:46 |
I just don't believe this. |
00:41:48 |
Now the question is what would, |
00:41:51 |
were we going to have a big show |
00:41:53 |
or was it going to be something that |
00:41:56 |
Even as Shoemaker Levy 9 |
00:42:00 |
some eminent scientists remained |
00:42:02 |
skeptical it would make |
00:42:06 |
Many astronomers believed the |
00:42:09 |
the comet into its vaporous depths. |
00:42:16 |
On July 16th, 1994, |
00:42:21 |
was due to cross Jupiter's path, |
00:42:23 |
scientists and reporters gathered |
00:42:26 |
of the Hubble Space Telescope. |
00:42:29 |
Gene found an empty office |
00:42:32 |
distant ground-based telescopes. |
00:42:35 |
We have heard that there have been |
00:42:39 |
Dan? Gene Shoemaker here... fine. |
00:42:41 |
in which a... I want to hear this... |
00:42:43 |
uh, what we're, the question is, |
00:42:48 |
There would be no reliable data until |
00:42:50 |
the Hubble Team downloaded the |
00:42:54 |
See, there's nothing in the sky... |
00:43:01 |
And they did, |
00:43:03 |
In the auditorium, |
00:43:04 |
Gene had little more information |
00:43:08 |
we should all take these reports |
00:43:12 |
they need to be confirmed. |
00:43:14 |
Look! Oh, my God! |
00:43:18 |
The tiny spot on Jupiter was in fact |
00:43:23 |
the size of the Earth. |
00:43:39 |
Whoa! Whoa! Look! |
00:43:41 |
We just downloaded the first |
00:43:44 |
which I have a raw laser printer |
00:43:49 |
Um, we can actually see |
00:43:52 |
And I'll remind you, |
00:43:55 |
not the brightest one, |
00:43:57 |
so we're gonna to |
00:44:18 |
I think we're |
00:44:21 |
to see an event that's, |
00:44:25 |
it's, it's once in a millennium. |
00:44:31 |
Gene's vindication was a |
00:44:34 |
now it arrived with |
00:44:38 |
Few scientists have seen their ideas |
00:44:46 |
That was one great moment in our lives. |
00:44:49 |
And it vindicated what Gene had been |
00:44:52 |
all these years and, |
00:44:56 |
the SL 9 impacts spelled it out in |
00:44:59 |
Gene, ya got it right. |
00:45:02 |
Over the next week, |
00:45:06 |
rained spectacular |
00:45:20 |
If anyone had any lingering doubts |
00:45:23 |
and that they can have |
00:45:26 |
watching those events |
00:45:50 |
To actually finally see an impact |
00:45:54 |
That event finally convinced most of |
00:45:59 |
yes, there really are large impacts, |
00:46:03 |
but on, on the Earth, as well. |
00:46:05 |
Could you imagine what SL 9 |
00:46:08 |
in its 21 pieces, |
00:46:11 |
Had any one of the fragments of SL 9 |
00:46:15 |
uh, one of the bigger fragments, |
00:46:17 |
we, we probably would have had a dark |
00:46:22 |
in the time of an order |
00:46:24 |
And we saw that the clouds |
00:46:29 |
as fairly dark clouds. |
00:46:29 |
What about even before the cloud, |
00:46:32 |
what about the rising temperatures |
00:46:35 |
What about before that? |
00:46:36 |
If people knew that a fragment |
00:46:40 |
I wonder about the mass hysteria |
00:46:45 |
Where would you go? |
00:46:46 |
People would say, Where can we hide? |
00:46:48 |
What can we do? |
00:47:19 |
You would feel as though you |
00:47:32 |
An enormous hole has been gouged |
00:47:36 |
then finally the sky will |
00:47:40 |
completely black, everywhere, |
00:48:04 |
Impacts today are a risk, |
00:48:08 |
they're something we need to |
00:48:11 |
If we don't learn how to protect |
00:48:15 |
then on the long term, we are likely |
00:48:20 |
If it happened to the dinosaurs, |
00:48:32 |
In SL 9's wake, scientists |
00:48:36 |
from Russia and the United States |
00:48:38 |
met at |
00:48:41 |
You've got fires. |
00:48:45 |
So, we have a very complicated... |
00:48:45 |
The topic was the end of the world. |
00:48:49 |
Multiple mechanisms |
00:48:51 |
You're gonna have |
00:48:56 |
Asteroids big enough to kill a |
00:48:58 |
human population collide with the |
00:49:03 |
Smaller bodies, capable of |
00:49:06 |
could hit once every |
00:49:10 |
it's going to glow for about |
00:49:12 |
and set everything on fire around you. |
00:49:14 |
Then it's going to be pitch black. |
00:49:16 |
One thing that makes the comet and |
00:49:21 |
relative to other hazards, |
00:49:23 |
is that it is the one hazard that is |
00:49:28 |
of putting at risk |
00:49:32 |
We could have any number of storms |
00:49:35 |
and they can do |
00:49:38 |
but they do not put the entire |
00:49:43 |
Incredibly, impact is the one great |
00:49:47 |
which we may be able to prevent. |
00:49:48 |
Many of those gathered |
00:49:51 |
were veterans of the Cold War, |
00:49:53 |
and already knew something about |
00:49:57 |
These bombs obviously, of course, |
00:50:00 |
hundred times their mass in a, |
00:50:08 |
In this case, a nuclear explosion, |
00:50:13 |
you get a reaction... |
00:50:22 |
If an approaching asteroid or comet |
00:50:26 |
the scenario might |
00:50:29 |
range rocket in the world |
00:50:36 |
Tipped with an |
00:50:38 |
the rocket would be detonated off |
00:50:42 |
nudging it out of its |
00:51:04 |
But before you launch a missile, |
00:51:08 |
Only a fraction of large Earth-crossing |
00:51:13 |
This may prove to be the |
00:51:23 |
I can tell you with confidence |
00:51:26 |
that have been discovered, |
00:51:28 |
but I can tell you nothing about the |
00:51:33 |
So, yes, we understand the general |
00:51:37 |
but we have not yet taken any real |
00:51:41 |
to protect ourselves or even to look |
00:51:43 |
and see if there's |
00:51:50 |
More telescopes have joined the search |
00:51:52 |
Even the U.S. Air Force has |
00:51:57 |
Big science has taken up |
00:52:02 |
Still, the most experienced team |
00:52:06 |
the charge from a tiny new |
00:52:22 |
Both Carolyn and I, |
00:52:25 |
We like to look at the sky. |
00:52:30 |
It's kind of an old fashioned brand |
00:52:34 |
uh, eyeball observations |
00:52:37 |
there's still a window there |
00:52:40 |
who's got the right idea, |
00:52:42 |
uh, to go and make |
00:52:47 |
Gene and Carolyn Shoemaker should know |
00:52:56 |
Now, they await with all of us the |
00:53:05 |
The question is not if, but when... |