|
Sp cialiste Portrait D un Criminel Moderne Un The Specialist
|
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Court rise! |
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The seventh hearing of the trial |
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The Attorney General will continue |
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Your Honour, here stands before you |
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the destroyer of a people, |
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an enemy of mankind. |
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He was born human |
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but he lived |
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He committed atrocities |
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so unspeakable |
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no longer deserves |
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His crimes go beyond |
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they go beyond what separates |
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man from beast. |
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I ask the Court to consider... |
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that he acted with enthusiasm... |
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out of his own free will... |
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and with passion. |
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Right to the end! |
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I therefore ask you |
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to sentence this man to death. |
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- Remove that man... |
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Butcher! |
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Order... |
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Remain seated! |
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If you want to stay, sit down |
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otherwise this hearing |
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If not, it will be adjourned! |
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Anyone who is unable |
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Mr. Bar Or, please continue. |
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- Did you meet Eichmann? |
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More than once? |
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Yes, yes. |
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What did you talk about |
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when you met Eichmann? |
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What were the topics? |
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All sorts of things. |
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I was part of a delegation |
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My task was to organise |
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I happened to be in charge |
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of the Fund |
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What happened? |
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I was told that he'd be there, |
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and since I thought |
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capable of listening |
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well, that it seemed |
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our situation, |
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in these meetings |
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I informed him |
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of our demands and grievances. |
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And from time to time he... |
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- He did something... |
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But... to be more precise |
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he almost always said: |
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"I must ask |
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my superiors. " |
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But in general, it was possible |
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to reach an understanding. |
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It seemed to me |
| 00:08:19 |
as if he wanted to understand |
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And... |
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obviously... |
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we all know that the issues |
| 00:08:27 |
concerning the Jews are not... |
| 00:08:30 |
...that simple. |
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A lot of things |
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even amongst ourselves... |
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I don't want to say... |
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any more about it. |
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And he asked me |
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And what was his behaviour like? |
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At the time |
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that he behaved normally. |
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Of course, there was nothing |
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They were cold and factual, |
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but properly conducted. |
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The meetings |
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- Entirely so! |
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He addressed me as "Herr", |
| 00:09:12 |
he asked me to sit down... |
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You see? |
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What did you think of his interest? |
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What I think of any official |
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"Explain this to me |
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- Thank you. |
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No questions to the witness. |
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You have concludeed your testimony. |
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Now, |
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with the permission of the Court |
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document 1137. |
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Under point 5: |
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Lieutenant-colonel Eichmann declares |
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that he was put in charge |
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of the Central Office |
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and that he definetely decided |
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to let the offices in Berlin, |
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Mr. Bar Or, please refrain |
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Very well, your Honour... |
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...to let them function separately. |
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He announced that he would |
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Two weeks per month in Berlin |
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and two weeks |
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Vienna, |
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Prague |
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and the General Government |
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- Where does it say this? |
| 00:10:37 |
- Yes, your Honour, under 13. |
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- This is reference T/798. |
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Yes, Mr. Hausner. |
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You stated that your work |
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was the one which gave you |
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and allowed you to savour |
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Is this correct? |
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Yes, it is correct. |
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Would you confirm |
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that in practice |
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was to expel the Jews? |
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It was... |
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a regulated, planned emigration. |
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And I regret that this principle |
| 00:11:28 |
was not maintained throughout |
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Is it correct that you stated |
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on page 736 |
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that it was a forced emigration? |
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Forced emigration meant |
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In which the Jews were forced to |
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Correct? |
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That is correct, |
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Is it true to say that not a penny |
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Correct? |
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That is unfortunate, |
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For all that concerned... |
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the organisation |
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in the eyes of your superiors |
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a qualified specialist? |
| 00:12:21 |
Yes. Emigration |
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one must have a good grasp of it |
| 00:12:28 |
And the Jews too... |
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It's all right, |
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Is this how you came to be called |
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"the specialist"? |
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Yes, I acquired a certain expertise. |
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Dr Servatius, |
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please proceed. |
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The following document is T/37. |
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296, |
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document 1167. |
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Another personal report undated. |
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It acknowledges your abilities |
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and defines you |
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What exactly are the abilities |
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Yes, they are the abilities |
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I acquired in the field |
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of emigration through experience. |
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A very complicated field. |
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I eventually knew |
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all the regulations |
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all the sums of money to be declared |
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all the technical details |
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...by heart. |
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And... |
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yes, I could pass |
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as specialist in this field. |
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But in my opinion... |
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it was a... |
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quality beneficial to both parties. |
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- Good. |
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the complaints |
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for help and assistance |
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made by the Jewish officials |
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who had been excluded by law |
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and who found themselves |
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I tried to help |
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these Jewish officials |
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and together |
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And it was naturally, |
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of helping them, that you acted? |
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No, as I said, |
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And I always took account |
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expressed by the Jews themselves |
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for land of their own, |
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I totally supported this idea, |
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and it formed |
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my delighted cooperation, |
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with the aim of finding |
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That was my wish |
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to help create a space |
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All right. |
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I emphasise that |
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that this project also failed. |
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So I said to myself: |
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"What's the point |
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"I'm too weak and powerless. |
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From now on - it was wartime - |
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I was a soldier I couldn't get away. |
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I tried to get away from it |
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I had to obey. |
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I recognised my powerlessness |
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with regard to my own proposals |
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because they were crushed |
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You poor man! |
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- Can we stop here, Mr. Hausner? |
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That's all for today. |
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The next hearing |
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Court rise! |
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Quiet! |
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I will ask the question in English. |
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"Who will pay for all this?" |
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I had nothing to do |
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I didn't carry out such things |
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I was not authorised |
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In accordance with the new orders |
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for the Fortification |
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and Cutural Identity, |
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I had to draw up transport plans |
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in Berlin |
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in cooperation |
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This is what my work entailed. |
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The policy at that time |
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from that |
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but I wasn't aware of this |
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I had orders. |
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Whether people were killed or not |
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orders had to be executed |
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in accordance |
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I was only responsible |
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for a small part |
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Other parts necessary |
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were the responsibility |
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This task of yours, |
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was it accomplished in the end? |
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You say that |
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A deportation consists |
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It wasn't an isolated operation. |
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Several departments took part in it. |
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As far as I was responsible |
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I was naturally obliged |
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There we have it! |
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- But I... |
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I know, your Honour, |
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but we get to the heart of the matter |
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But I understand |
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Yes, it's time. |
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It is important but I will |
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We'll interrupt the hearing now. |
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The hearing will continue at 15:30. |
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Court rise! |
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Court rise! |
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- Yes? |
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we will now show the films |
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we saw yesterday. |
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Before each sequence |
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I'll explain what it is about. |
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Dr Servatius, |
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Your Honour, |
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I was informed, |
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Very well, let us start. |
| 00:25:16 |
Lights off, please... |
| 00:25:21 |
The first images |
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show the Special Units |
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executing women and men. |
| 00:25:38 |
These images are similar to the ones |
| 00:25:43 |
shown at Nuremberg. |
| 00:26:01 |
SS Soldiers, female SS members... |
| 00:26:07 |
Here the contents |
| 00:26:10 |
Dentures, spectacles, |
| 00:26:15 |
Spectacles... |
| 00:26:25 |
Piles of corpses |
| 00:26:33 |
The Court will see barbed wire, |
| 00:26:36 |
watchtowers |
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and the electrified fences. |
| 00:26:51 |
A dead man |
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on the electrified fence. |
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A suicide. |
| 00:27:07 |
Mauthausen, naked people. |
| 00:27:18 |
I'm sorry that it was necessary |
| 00:27:21 |
to subject the Court |
| 00:27:24 |
The showing is finished. |
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...the train arrived here. |
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- Mr. Shlomo... |
| 00:28:10 |
Would you step aside a little? |
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They opened the wagons |
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with all our things. |
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A lot of people |
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and inside the wagons |
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because they didn't get out |
| 00:28:29 |
We were all herded together here. |
| 00:28:31 |
They made us run to here |
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at full speed. |
| 00:28:36 |
And it was here |
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that the selection started. |
| 00:28:40 |
Yes. |
| 00:28:41 |
I didn't want |
| 00:28:44 |
but just by the door |
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with a truncheon. |
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I fell |
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but I got up again immediately |
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so I wouldn't be hit again |
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but my mother wasn't there anymore. |
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Did you see your mother again? |
| 00:29:01 |
- No, never. |
| 00:29:08 |
Dr Servatius, any questions? |
| 00:29:12 |
No, no questions. |
| 00:29:15 |
You concluded your testimony. |
| 00:29:35 |
We continue with the |
| 00:29:39 |
I remind the accused that |
| 00:29:47 |
Yes, I'm aware of that. |
| 00:29:50 |
Yes, Mr. Hausner. |
| 00:29:53 |
I would like to know |
| 00:29:55 |
if the coordination depended |
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and which one? |
| 00:30:06 |
Once Himmler ordered the evacuation, |
| 00:30:09 |
all the authorities |
| 00:30:12 |
and started deportations |
| 00:30:14 |
to the territories |
| 00:30:17 |
Obviously, this led |
| 00:30:21 |
In order to put a stop to these, |
| 00:30:24 |
Security Police chief, |
| 00:30:28 |
He created the section |
| 00:30:30 |
IV/R, later known as IV/D4 |
| 00:30:35 |
of the government office lll/3ES. |
| 00:30:37 |
The task within this bureau |
| 00:30:41 |
My task was |
| 00:30:43 |
to manage the technical |
| 00:30:46 |
to make sure that |
| 00:30:49 |
and the number of deportees |
| 00:30:54 |
As far as evacuation was concerned, |
| 00:30:57 |
it was the local authorities |
| 00:31:01 |
provide the trains and wagons |
| 00:31:04 |
which resulted in tremendous |
| 00:31:07 |
confusion. |
| 00:31:08 |
This is why |
| 00:31:10 |
I was ordered to go to Berlin |
| 00:31:15 |
so that this newly set up section |
| 00:31:18 |
should centralise |
| 00:31:22 |
centrally from Berlin. |
| 00:31:24 |
What qualifications did you have |
| 00:31:27 |
for moving from emigration |
| 00:31:29 |
to evacuation? |
| 00:31:31 |
The problems involved |
| 00:31:33 |
from the ones you had to solve |
| 00:31:44 |
Yes, that's correct. |
| 00:31:46 |
I had to familiarise myself |
| 00:31:49 |
I suppose the reason |
| 00:31:52 |
for my assignment to Berlin |
| 00:31:56 |
was that Heydrich and Muller |
| 00:31:59 |
knew I had years of experience |
| 00:32:03 |
in the field of transport. |
| 00:32:07 |
And since the evacuation |
| 00:32:10 |
of the Eastern Provinces |
| 00:32:12 |
was basically... |
| 00:32:15 |
a technical question of transport, |
| 00:32:17 |
I was ordered to Berlin. |
| 00:32:19 |
This is the only explanation I have. |
| 00:32:24 |
These transports from the East |
| 00:32:26 |
were destined for extermination, |
| 00:32:28 |
weren't they? |
| 00:32:33 |
No, that is incorrect! |
| 00:32:34 |
- It is incorrect? |
| 00:32:35 |
Whether they were for extermination |
| 00:32:38 |
because nobody knew |
| 00:32:40 |
whether the transports were destined |
| 00:32:44 |
The bureau in charge |
| 00:32:46 |
of the timetabling |
| 00:32:49 |
knew nothing about this. |
| 00:32:53 |
No, I repeat, no! |
| 00:32:54 |
I will not allow this |
| 00:33:02 |
If necessary I will have |
| 00:33:09 |
Please continue. |
| 00:33:11 |
Since there is no objection |
| 00:33:13 |
to the submission |
| 00:33:16 |
I will now read it out to the Court. |
| 00:33:22 |
Just a moment... |
| 00:33:24 |
Would you please proceed... |
| 00:33:27 |
It's document T/1356. |
| 00:33:30 |
That's 1356. |
| 00:33:33 |
- It was presented this morning. |
| 00:33:36 |
1356. |
| 00:33:38 |
Let us call it T/1356a. |
| 00:33:43 |
Rajewski testifies |
| 00:33:45 |
that he was sent to Auschwitz |
| 00:33:48 |
where he worked |
| 00:33:52 |
i.e. political department. |
| 00:33:58 |
On page 174, |
| 00:34:01 |
he states: |
| 00:34:06 |
"An order was given |
| 00:34:08 |
"to use rubber stamps |
| 00:34:11 |
"to stamp the filing-cards |
| 00:34:14 |
with numerical codes. " |
| 00:34:17 |
I will present the Court |
| 00:34:21 |
The cards were marked as follows: |
| 00:34:26 |
"RSH'A, IV/B4a", |
| 00:34:31 |
followed by the words: |
| 00:34:33 |
"Jews from France, |
| 00:34:39 |
"IV/B4a, |
| 00:34:42 |
"2093/42G... |
| 00:34:46 |
".../3913.; |
| 00:34:49 |
"Jews from Germany. |
| 00:34:53 |
"IV/B4a, 2927/42G... |
| 00:35:00 |
".../1148.; |
| 00:35:03 |
"Jews from Greece. |
| 00:35:05 |
"IV/B4a, |
| 00:35:07 |
"3013/42G/1310.; |
| 00:35:14 |
"Jews from Croatia, |
| 00:35:16 |
"from the Protectorate |
| 00:35:20 |
"Jews from Romania, |
| 00:35:25 |
"IV/B4a, 2093/42G/39.; |
| 00:35:31 |
"Jews from the G. G.", |
| 00:35:35 |
"and from Bialystok... |
| 00:35:39 |
"IV/B4a, |
| 00:35:42 |
"3666/42G/1505.; |
| 00:35:48 |
"Polish 'Aryans." |
| 00:35:51 |
I address the accused. |
| 00:35:54 |
I thought that IV/B4 |
| 00:35:58 |
Did IV/B4 also deal with Poles, |
| 00:36:02 |
on the basis |
| 00:36:08 |
That is correct, |
| 00:36:09 |
whenever technical questions |
| 00:36:12 |
of transport such as timetables |
| 00:36:16 |
This, however, concerned |
| 00:36:19 |
only limited groups of people: |
| 00:36:22 |
Gypsies... |
| 00:36:25 |
Poles... |
| 00:36:27 |
- Slovenes. |
| 00:36:32 |
And Jews. I think that's all. |
| 00:36:37 |
Are you aware that |
| 00:36:41 |
unspeakable miseries? |
| 00:36:52 |
I know that, |
| 00:36:55 |
until I took over |
| 00:36:57 |
the running of the section, |
| 00:37:01 |
by the way I've said this |
| 00:37:05 |
there... |
| 00:37:08 |
there was confusion and... |
| 00:37:11 |
and extreme disorder. |
| 00:37:14 |
According to the report, |
| 00:37:18 |
in the wagons for eight days. |
| 00:37:20 |
And... |
| 00:37:21 |
this is the reason why |
| 00:37:24 |
this section was created in Berlin. |
| 00:37:28 |
As far as I know, |
| 00:37:29 |
these things didn't happen again. |
| 00:37:32 |
It may be that, due to inadequacies |
| 00:37:36 |
on the local level, |
| 00:37:38 |
the occasional unpleasantness |
| 00:37:42 |
But we did our best |
| 00:37:45 |
to avoid these things. |
| 00:37:47 |
Once arrangements |
| 00:37:52 |
and once the destination |
| 00:37:54 |
had been established, |
| 00:37:58 |
to determine the transport capacity. |
| 00:38:01 |
Then the number |
| 00:38:04 |
Following this, the time was set |
| 00:38:08 |
the timetables. |
| 00:38:11 |
This can be seen from the documents. |
| 00:38:14 |
Could we for once speak |
| 00:38:17 |
and appeal to your memory? |
| 00:38:19 |
Is this impossible? |
| 00:38:22 |
But I would like to explain... |
| 00:38:24 |
No, you haven't understood |
| 00:38:29 |
for this interrogation. |
| 00:38:30 |
You must answer the questions |
| 00:38:32 |
without arguing, |
| 00:38:34 |
unless it is indispensable |
| 00:38:38 |
for understanding the answer. |
| 00:38:41 |
I wanted to avoid |
| 00:38:44 |
that's why I wanted |
| 00:38:47 |
If it's not allowed, so be it. |
| 00:38:50 |
I don't believe that any of this |
| 00:38:53 |
but please continue. |
| 00:39:21 |
...it was chaos, |
| 00:39:24 |
from a technical point of view. |
| 00:39:26 |
Negotiations |
| 00:39:29 |
and the Ministry of Tranport |
| 00:39:31 |
were unsuccessful. |
| 00:39:33 |
Coordination between |
| 00:39:36 |
did not work. |
| 00:39:38 |
The individual Heads of district |
| 00:39:42 |
the heads of the SS and the police |
| 00:39:46 |
they received |
| 00:39:50 |
In short, everyone acted |
| 00:39:53 |
and those who suffered |
| 00:39:56 |
whether Polish or Jewish. |
| 00:40:00 |
The instructions concerning |
| 00:40:04 |
stipulated |
| 00:40:06 |
that the transports |
| 00:40:08 |
and although a train only had |
| 00:40:12 |
it was necessary |
| 00:40:17 |
Was this not |
| 00:40:21 |
for which you are responsible? |
| 00:40:24 |
No. |
| 00:40:26 |
It is a matter which |
| 00:40:29 |
the Central Security Office, |
| 00:40:32 |
or more precisely IV/B4, |
| 00:40:35 |
was unable to decide in any case. |
| 00:40:39 |
But the number 700, |
| 00:40:43 |
as far as I remember, |
| 00:40:46 |
was then a normal number |
| 00:40:48 |
relative to the number of wagons |
| 00:40:51 |
otherwise it would be |
| 00:40:55 |
It was the usual number for |
| 00:40:58 |
In a military transport, |
| 00:41:02 |
had his baggage with him. |
| 00:41:05 |
But in this particular case, |
| 00:41:07 |
the luggage was locked |
| 00:41:10 |
in special goods wagons |
| 00:41:13 |
that were made available |
| 00:41:15 |
and attached to the train. |
| 00:41:17 |
Silence! You may think what you like |
| 00:41:24 |
- So that... |
| 00:41:27 |
So that the people |
| 00:41:30 |
didn't have their luggage with them, |
| 00:41:35 |
because it was |
| 00:41:40 |
In accordance with a calculation |
| 00:41:44 |
the capacity of the wagons |
| 00:41:48 |
from 700 to 1000 passengers. |
| 00:41:53 |
Silence! |
| 00:41:59 |
I forbid you to demonstrate... |
| 00:42:03 |
your feelings. |
| 00:42:11 |
The number of deportees |
| 00:42:14 |
was shown on a graph |
| 00:42:17 |
on the wall in your office. |
| 00:42:22 |
Yes, that's correct. |
| 00:42:25 |
Your section knew exactly |
| 00:42:30 |
how many people were deported |
| 00:42:31 |
and where they were deported to. |
| 00:42:34 |
Yes, they knew. |
| 00:42:36 |
I had to make |
| 00:42:40 |
Now, the Court asks you to show |
| 00:42:44 |
the territories annexed |
| 00:42:50 |
as they were invaded. |
| 00:42:53 |
Are you ready to do this? |
| 00:42:57 |
I don't recall the details any more. |
| 00:43:01 |
I only know that I have... |
| 00:43:03 |
I can't see the map from here. |
| 00:43:06 |
May I get a bit closer? |
| 00:43:12 |
Yes. |
| 00:43:27 |
From what I can see on the map, |
| 00:43:32 |
the following Eastern territories |
| 00:43:37 |
Here we have the border |
| 00:43:40 |
This part was incorporated |
| 00:43:44 |
and then this one. |
| 00:43:51 |
To my knowledge all those territories |
| 00:43:55 |
and nationalisation |
| 00:44:26 |
Were there many suicides |
| 00:44:30 |
There were times |
| 00:44:33 |
among others in summer 1942. |
| 00:44:37 |
I believe that over a period |
| 00:44:40 |
of two months or ten weeks, |
| 00:44:43 |
there were about a hundred suicides. |
| 00:44:47 |
Suicide was disapproved |
| 00:44:51 |
Those who tried and failed |
| 00:44:55 |
were heavily criticised for this |
| 00:45:00 |
They thought that anybody |
| 00:45:04 |
should wait until after |
| 00:45:08 |
because anyone who killed themselves |
| 00:45:11 |
was automatically |
| 00:45:13 |
to make up numbers |
| 00:45:20 |
Now I would like |
| 00:45:22 |
to the following document, No. 976 |
| 00:45:26 |
which concerns the deportation |
| 00:45:29 |
of Jews to Auschwitz, |
| 00:45:31 |
in particular |
| 00:45:34 |
"I request urgent information |
| 00:45:36 |
"as to wether the children |
| 00:45:41 |
Here is a hand-written annotation... |
| 00:45:44 |
It says "RF"... |
| 00:45:49 |
- Reichsfuhrer. |
| 00:45:52 |
- Reichsfuhrer? |
| 00:45:53 |
Reichsfuhrer... |
| 00:45:54 |
- At the top of the page. |
| 00:45:57 |
Reichsfuhrer SS. |
| 00:46:00 |
Reichsfuhrer SS, yes. |
| 00:46:04 |
It's document T/405. |
| 00:46:09 |
"The question of the children's |
| 00:46:12 |
"with Lieutenant-colonel |
| 00:46:14 |
"He decided that, |
| 00:46:16 |
with renewed transports |
| 00:46:21 |
- the General gouvernement - |
| 00:46:23 |
"the children's transports |
| 00:46:24 |
"can roll. |
| 00:46:26 |
The children's transports |
| 00:46:30 |
Monsieur Wellers, |
| 00:46:32 |
how the children seemed |
| 00:46:35 |
at their arrival at the camp? |
| 00:46:46 |
They arrived |
| 00:46:49 |
at the camp in buses, |
| 00:46:51 |
as was usual at this camp. |
| 00:46:56 |
The buses were guarded |
| 00:47:01 |
together with |
| 00:47:05 |
The buses drove right into the camp. |
| 00:47:08 |
In the middle of the yard, |
| 00:47:10 |
there was a section... |
| 00:47:13 |
divided off by barbed wire. |
| 00:47:16 |
The buses drove into this enclosure. |
| 00:47:20 |
Then the children were ordered |
| 00:47:26 |
because many other buses |
| 00:47:29 |
and they had to make way |
| 00:47:34 |
So these poor children... |
| 00:47:37 |
were completely upset |
| 00:47:44 |
They got out... |
| 00:47:47 |
of the buses... |
| 00:47:52 |
in silence. |
| 00:47:55 |
They took them in groups... |
| 00:47:59 |
corresponding approximately |
| 00:48:03 |
Sometimes there were |
| 00:48:09 |
The oldest... |
| 00:48:12 |
holding hands |
| 00:48:18 |
Nobody was allowed |
| 00:48:21 |
except for those of us |
| 00:48:22 |
with special authorisation, |
| 00:48:26 |
like myself. |
| 00:48:28 |
Then they were led |
| 00:48:32 |
There was no furniture, |
| 00:48:34 |
just straw mattresses on the floor, |
| 00:48:37 |
which were filthy, |
| 00:48:40 |
disgusting, |
| 00:48:42 |
full of bedbugs. |
| 00:48:48 |
Did the children leave |
| 00:48:50 |
the camp easily, without... |
| 00:49:00 |
No. |
| 00:49:02 |
Mostly this was... |
| 00:49:05 |
a horrendous operation. |
| 00:49:09 |
They were woken at 5 am. |
| 00:49:14 |
It was impossible |
| 00:49:19 |
So then, |
| 00:49:21 |
the gendarmes |
| 00:49:23 |
went up to their rooms... |
| 00:49:26 |
and seized the children, |
| 00:49:31 |
as they were forced into the yard. |
| 00:49:39 |
Mr Wellers, when you arrived |
| 00:49:43 |
did you, during that time, |
| 00:49:46 |
see any of the children |
| 00:49:48 |
you had encountered before |
| 00:50:02 |
No, obviously not. |
| 00:50:08 |
The French police also |
| 00:50:11 |
Paris asked me |
| 00:50:15 |
what was to be done |
| 00:50:19 |
I telegraphed |
| 00:50:22 |
"With renewed transports |
| 00:50:26 |
the children's transports |
| 00:50:29 |
The fact that it took eleven days |
| 00:50:33 |
to come to a decision in this matter |
| 00:50:37 |
proves that on my part |
| 00:50:41 |
to my superiors |
| 00:50:44 |
I was not authorised |
| 00:50:46 |
And when my superiors |
| 00:50:49 |
eleven days later, |
| 00:50:51 |
I informed Paris |
| 00:50:55 |
The documents from France prove |
| 00:50:59 |
was that of an transmitting agency |
| 00:51:02 |
as documents |
| 00:51:04 |
They have been preserved |
| 00:51:19 |
You already said that, |
| 00:51:22 |
if a particular |
| 00:51:24 |
it proves |
| 00:51:27 |
personally. |
| 00:51:29 |
Are you implying that |
| 00:51:33 |
than other people working |
| 00:51:37 |
No, I'm not, |
| 00:51:38 |
your Honour. |
| 00:51:39 |
But... if it took such a long time, |
| 00:51:43 |
it proves to me that the competences |
| 00:51:48 |
and first required negotiation |
| 00:51:52 |
with the head of the department. |
| 00:51:54 |
I couldn't decide on a case |
| 00:51:58 |
And it took time to achieve |
| 00:52:02 |
But when the competences |
| 00:52:06 |
one could act in accordance |
| 00:52:20 |
I have drawn up a diagram. |
| 00:52:25 |
Here, it goes down... |
| 00:52:27 |
to Muller, |
| 00:52:29 |
down to the circle. |
| 00:52:32 |
Then there's an arrow leading |
| 00:52:35 |
to the head of Security. |
| 00:52:38 |
It's difficult to show this |
| 00:52:42 |
This arrow here |
| 00:54:15 |
Court rise! |
| 00:54:33 |
The 71st hearing is now open. |
| 00:55:36 |
Now, Wannsee. |
| 00:55:45 |
The Wannsee Conference. |
| 00:55:47 |
In one paragraph |
| 00:55:50 |
"Finally, various possible types |
| 00:55:56 |
Do you remember this? |
| 00:55:59 |
I remember |
| 00:56:03 |
Do you remember what was discussed? |
| 00:56:06 |
Different methods of killing. |
| 00:56:08 |
- Methods of killing? |
| 00:56:20 |
Now, |
| 00:56:22 |
how do you explain why, |
| 00:56:26 |
precisely these three men, |
| 00:56:28 |
Heydrich, Muller and Eichmann, |
| 00:56:31 |
stayed on to celebrate? |
| 00:56:32 |
- Celebrate? |
| 00:56:36 |
- But why Eichmann? |
| 00:56:40 |
We three were the only ones left. |
| 00:56:42 |
Heydrich gave instructions as to how |
| 00:56:48 |
And after he had given |
| 00:56:52 |
the subject was not mentioned again. |
| 00:56:55 |
I was invited to drink |
| 00:56:58 |
a glass of Cognac... |
| 00:57:01 |
That's what happened. |
| 00:57:10 |
You told my colleague, Judge Raveh, |
| 00:57:13 |
that in the part |
| 00:57:18 |
the methods of killing |
| 00:57:22 |
Yes. |
| 00:57:26 |
Who talked about the subject? |
| 00:57:31 |
I don't recall the details, |
| 00:57:34 |
But I know that these gentlemen |
| 00:57:39 |
and that they talked |
| 00:57:44 |
not the words I was later told |
| 00:57:47 |
They talked about it |
| 00:57:55 |
without any circumlocution. |
| 00:57:57 |
I certainly wouldn't |
| 00:57:59 |
remember this, |
| 00:58:00 |
were it not for the fact |
| 00:58:03 |
"Well, well! There's Stuckart |
| 00:58:06 |
"who is always so... |
| 00:58:12 |
"and a pettifogging stickler |
| 00:58:16 |
And at this moment... |
| 00:58:20 |
His tone was... |
| 00:58:22 |
He was using a vocabulary |
| 00:58:27 |
What did he say on the subject? |
| 00:58:30 |
I forget the details. |
| 00:58:32 |
Not the details... In general! |
| 00:58:36 |
They talked about killing, |
| 00:58:40 |
Since I had to prepare the minutes, |
| 00:58:44 |
I couldn't stay |
| 00:58:47 |
But the words reached my ear. |
| 00:58:50 |
The room wasn't very big |
| 00:58:52 |
and I could make out certain words. |
| 00:58:56 |
And what was said |
| 00:58:59 |
you claim to have completely |
| 00:59:03 |
Your Honour, that's not... |
| 00:59:08 |
Do you mean to say |
| 00:59:12 |
are a subject of no importance? |
| 00:59:15 |
Oh, the methods of killing? |
| 00:59:17 |
That's what we're talking about! |
| 00:59:25 |
Was killing by gas discussed? |
| 00:59:28 |
No, not by gas. |
| 00:59:41 |
Quiet please! |
| 00:59:42 |
We ask the Court |
| 00:59:46 |
to which we want to draw |
| 00:59:49 |
These tapes will be heard |
| 00:59:56 |
I remember that afterwards |
| 01:00:03 |
certain people present spoke. |
| 01:00:06 |
It was the first time |
| 01:00:10 |
with the participation |
| 01:00:14 |
as the Secretaries of State. |
| 01:00:21 |
Everyone's behaviour was very calm, |
| 01:00:24 |
very friendly and very courteous. |
| 01:00:28 |
Not very much was said |
| 01:00:31 |
We were served a Cognac |
| 01:00:35 |
and the affair was over. |
| 01:00:38 |
I felt satisfied |
| 01:00:45 |
with regard to the result |
| 01:00:48 |
'At that moment I felt |
| 01:00:52 |
the kind of satisfaction |
| 01:00:56 |
because I felt devoid of any guilt. |
| 01:00:59 |
The prominent figures of the Reich |
| 01:01:05 |
The Popes had given their orders. |
| 01:01:07 |
I had to obey. |
| 01:01:09 |
I kept this in mind |
| 01:01:12 |
Thank you. |
| 01:01:24 |
But I always understood, |
| 01:01:25 |
when Pontius Pilate |
| 01:01:29 |
it was referring |
| 01:01:32 |
I was just going to talk about that. |
| 01:01:34 |
I told myself |
| 01:01:36 |
that I did all I could, |
| 01:01:38 |
I was an instrument |
| 01:01:43 |
To put it crudely, |
| 01:01:45 |
I had to wash my hands |
| 01:01:49 |
This is how I interpret it. |
| 01:01:51 |
As to myself, it didn't concern |
| 01:01:57 |
but rather |
| 01:02:00 |
So, when you washed |
| 01:02:05 |
it was a form of... |
| 01:02:07 |
mental reservation? |
| 01:02:09 |
In 1942? |
| 01:02:11 |
- At the Wannsee Conference! |
| 01:02:15 |
Was it a form of mental reservation? |
| 01:02:37 |
Dr Melkman, |
| 01:02:39 |
Yes. |
| 01:02:43 |
Apart from having suffered |
| 01:02:48 |
to the Jews in Holland |
| 01:02:51 |
you have also researched |
| 01:02:55 |
Yes, |
| 01:02:56 |
in particular at the Yad Vashem |
| 01:02:59 |
but I started my research earlier... |
| 01:03:02 |
When were you director |
| 01:03:05 |
From 1957 to 1960. |
| 01:03:09 |
Did you know Mr. Edelstein? |
| 01:03:13 |
Yes. |
| 01:03:15 |
Where did he come from |
| 01:03:18 |
in connection |
| 01:03:22 |
Edelstein arrived in March, |
| 01:03:26 |
he came from Prague |
| 01:03:29 |
and his mission was to show the Jews |
| 01:03:32 |
how to create a Judenrat |
| 01:03:36 |
and how to collaborate |
| 01:03:39 |
- We had a meeting... |
| 01:03:43 |
Explain to us. |
| 01:03:44 |
The sort of relations |
| 01:03:50 |
Apparently, the Jews in Holland |
| 01:03:54 |
He and I attended a meeting |
| 01:03:57 |
of the leaders |
| 01:04:00 |
at the house of its President, |
| 01:04:03 |
who later perished in Bergen-Belsen. |
| 01:04:06 |
I want to say that |
| 01:04:10 |
like a Jew who was sincere, |
| 01:04:13 |
Who sent him to Holland? |
| 01:04:17 |
The German authorities, |
| 01:04:19 |
have been able to come. |
| 01:04:29 |
Would you now explain to the Court |
| 01:04:34 |
how the deportations |
| 01:04:39 |
how you were informed, |
| 01:04:43 |
The Commandant informed |
| 01:04:46 |
the Jewish leadership |
| 01:04:50 |
that the next morning, |
| 01:04:55 |
had to be sent. |
| 01:04:56 |
They wanted a thousand, |
| 01:04:59 |
The Jewish leadership |
| 01:05:05 |
the names of the people |
| 01:05:10 |
A certain number |
| 01:05:12 |
because of the possibility |
| 01:05:15 |
that some of them would die |
| 01:05:18 |
and on arrival in Auschwitz |
| 01:05:21 |
the number had to be exact. |
| 01:05:23 |
So, if they asked for 1,000, |
| 01:05:32 |
Sometimes the people on the list |
| 01:05:35 |
had preferred status |
| 01:05:39 |
which meant they were protected |
| 01:05:42 |
And when there was not enough |
| 01:05:45 |
their special status |
| 01:05:47 |
was cancelled. |
| 01:05:49 |
Did you know then that |
| 01:05:53 |
We didn't know that... |
| 01:05:55 |
they were going |
| 01:05:57 |
I can only say this: |
| 01:06:01 |
a type of... |
| 01:06:05 |
official report, |
| 01:06:07 |
addressed to the Judenrat, |
| 01:06:09 |
to the Jewish Council. |
| 01:06:13 |
that apparently there were |
| 01:06:17 |
And, we already knew |
| 01:06:18 |
that many Jews had been sent |
| 01:06:21 |
Dr Melkman, |
| 01:06:23 |
these people on the lists, |
| 01:06:26 |
when did they leave? |
| 01:06:28 |
The next morning |
| 01:06:30 |
they all had to assemble |
| 01:06:33 |
in the main road |
| 01:06:39 |
They had to get on |
| 01:06:41 |
and in general |
| 01:06:43 |
the train left |
| 01:06:45 |
Thank you. |
| 01:06:56 |
Dr Servatius? |
| 01:06:58 |
I have no questions. |
| 01:07:00 |
I ask the audience to be quiet. |
| 01:07:03 |
Those who want to leave |
| 01:07:07 |
I call the witness Gedalia Ben-Zvi. |
| 01:07:24 |
Put the Yarmulka |
| 01:07:26 |
on your head. |
| 01:07:29 |
I swear by God |
| 01:07:33 |
that my testimony before this Court |
| 01:07:35 |
will be the truth, |
| 01:07:36 |
the whole truth |
| 01:07:37 |
and nothing but the truth. |
| 01:07:41 |
Your full name? |
| 01:07:43 |
Ben-Zvi Gedalia. |
| 01:07:47 |
Describe how you arrived |
| 01:07:51 |
After a journey |
| 01:07:55 |
how many days, in goods wagons |
| 01:07:58 |
with about 40 persons per wagon, |
| 01:08:00 |
we arrived in Birkenau, |
| 01:08:02 |
At the ramp in Birkenau, |
| 01:08:06 |
get to know very well. |
| 01:08:08 |
Your number is quite low, |
| 01:08:11 |
It's 37017. |
| 01:08:16 |
I should have mentioned that |
| 01:08:19 |
at the time of my arrival, |
| 01:08:23 |
Only later was it changed |
| 01:08:25 |
What work did you do in Auschwitz? |
| 01:08:29 |
I had different tasks... |
| 01:08:32 |
I went at night... |
| 01:08:35 |
to receive the people |
| 01:08:39 |
I was next to the railway |
| 01:08:43 |
There was always a vehicle |
| 01:08:47 |
in case of possible incidents. |
| 01:08:50 |
In case someone resisted |
| 01:08:52 |
or had a fit. |
| 01:08:55 |
To prevent panic or disorder, |
| 01:08:58 |
they put them |
| 01:08:59 |
inside the vehicle |
| 01:09:02 |
A vehicle of the Red Cross? |
| 01:09:03 |
Yes, a vehicle of the Red Cross. |
| 01:09:05 |
Whenever a transport arrived |
| 01:09:08 |
It was the same vehicle |
| 01:09:12 |
where the cans |
| 01:09:15 |
and later delivered |
| 01:09:17 |
The German Red Cross? |
| 01:09:19 |
The German Red Cross. |
| 01:09:25 |
Do you recall an incident |
| 01:09:31 |
Tell us, please. |
| 01:09:33 |
The people |
| 01:09:37 |
But on this transport, |
| 01:09:39 |
There were approximately |
| 01:09:45 |
When the S.S. opened the doors, |
| 01:09:50 |
people literally |
| 01:09:52 |
because the wagons were so packed. |
| 01:09:55 |
Only those who... |
| 01:09:56 |
who had been trampled or suffocated |
| 01:09:59 |
were still inside the wagons, |
| 01:10:01 |
either dead or half dead. |
| 01:10:03 |
They gave out so much heat... |
| 01:10:06 |
they were still hot... |
| 01:10:08 |
How can I put it? |
| 01:10:12 |
Yes. Go on, please. |
| 01:10:16 |
We stayed on the side |
| 01:10:21 |
"Get in the wagons, dirty Jews!" |
| 01:10:24 |
So... |
| 01:10:25 |
among shouts and blows, |
| 01:10:28 |
we got into the wagons |
| 01:10:31 |
the bodies. |
| 01:10:33 |
It was hard work |
| 01:10:35 |
because they were snarled up, |
| 01:10:39 |
completely entangled. |
| 01:10:41 |
Sometimes when we pulled |
| 01:10:43 |
the skin tore because of the heat. |
| 01:10:45 |
It was hard work. |
| 01:10:47 |
It took several hours |
| 01:10:52 |
Groups of four men |
| 01:10:57 |
Thank you, that's all. |
| 01:11:01 |
Any questions, Dr Servatius? |
| 01:11:03 |
No, no questions. |
| 01:11:06 |
- Thank you. |
| 01:11:11 |
I call the witness Abraham Aviel. |
| 01:11:30 |
Please stand up, Madam. |
| 01:11:35 |
Raise your right hand... |
| 01:11:38 |
No, no, please! |
| 01:11:47 |
...that my testimony... |
| 01:11:53 |
...will be the truth... |
| 01:11:55 |
...the whole truth... |
| 01:12:03 |
...will be the truth... |
| 01:12:07 |
...that my testimony |
| 01:12:22 |
What is your name? |
| 01:12:29 |
...you arrived from Norway |
| 01:12:35 |
When were you born? |
| 01:12:36 |
In 1928. |
| 01:12:41 |
...some months |
| 01:12:43 |
...transports |
| 01:12:46 |
...these transports |
| 01:12:50 |
for the regular emigration... |
| 01:12:53 |
...transports and more transports... |
| 01:12:55 |
...Z, zydov, Jew... |
| 01:12:57 |
...why, I don't know, |
| 01:12:58 |
I did nothing to harm them. |
| 01:13:01 |
I didn't owe them anything, |
| 01:13:03 |
And yet I was beaten |
| 01:13:06 |
until I bled. |
| 01:13:09 |
- It's me. |
| 01:13:15 |
...which was directed by Eichmann... |
| 01:13:18 |
...some S.S., and with them |
| 01:13:23 |
...the blood on their head and chest |
| 01:13:27 |
had already coagulated... |
| 01:13:55 |
...but she's dead! |
| 01:13:56 |
"You're crazy! She is 'SB'!" |
| 01:14:01 |
"...you know who I am! |
| 01:14:04 |
I give the orders here!" |
| 01:14:14 |
"...Goods for blood! |
| 01:14:18 |
...Even though... |
| 01:14:21 |
...a head, a foot... |
| 01:14:24 |
...what could we do? They... |
| 01:14:27 |
...beat us and kept beating us |
| 01:14:30 |
...the Popes for example, |
| 01:14:34 |
in their Councils... |
| 01:14:37 |
...some didn't have the right |
| 01:14:42 |
...he rained blows on me, |
| 01:14:46 |
Then, once again, |
| 01:14:48 |
I carried him towards... |
| 01:14:49 |
I pulled the corpse... this man... |
| 01:14:54 |
...they packed it... |
| 01:14:57 |
as full as they could. |
| 01:15:02 |
that they could hardly shut |
| 01:15:06 |
...when the work was finished |
| 01:15:12 |
the Kapo felt sorry for us and said: |
| 01:15:15 |
"Children, |
| 01:15:18 |
"it's cold outside, |
| 01:15:19 |
"go and warm up in the gas chambers, |
| 01:15:22 |
there's nobody left in there. " |
| 01:15:24 |
...it was... |
| 01:15:29 |
Excuse me... |
| 01:15:31 |
There, there, it'll pass. |
| 01:15:35 |
Have some water. |
| 01:15:42 |
Why didn't you resist? |
| 01:15:56 |
Have you managed to forget |
| 01:15:59 |
No, I... |
| 01:16:02 |
I don't sleep at night. |
| 01:16:04 |
I can't get to sleep, |
| 01:16:06 |
it haunts me all the time. |
| 01:16:11 |
...one question is hanging over us: |
| 01:16:16 |
As a Jew who fought, |
| 01:16:19 |
I absolutely repudiate |
| 01:16:22 |
if it implies |
| 01:16:26 |
Thank you very much. |
| 01:16:31 |
Mr. Hausner, |
| 01:16:32 |
we have just heard |
| 01:16:34 |
profoundly distressing matters |
| 01:16:40 |
But... with this testimony, |
| 01:16:43 |
we are getting away |
| 01:16:46 |
from the object of this trial. |
| 01:16:49 |
I'm sorry to have to say this |
| 01:16:51 |
at the end of this testimony. |
| 01:16:54 |
No, it's a pity... |
| 01:16:58 |
The Court has a certain conception |
| 01:17:01 |
of what this trial should be. |
| 01:17:04 |
The prosecution |
| 01:17:07 |
in accordance |
| 01:17:09 |
This is what we are doing, |
| 01:17:12 |
I must state that the line |
| 01:17:14 |
of this trial is not being followed |
| 01:17:17 |
in the way it should be. |
| 01:17:20 |
Maybe that's |
| 01:17:21 |
because you are not aware |
| 01:17:25 |
We heard your opening speech |
| 01:17:28 |
which I believe outlines very well |
| 01:17:38 |
Were these Jews |
| 01:17:41 |
Yes or no? |
| 01:17:42 |
I'm not denying it, |
| 01:17:45 |
I had orders to carry out |
| 01:17:47 |
by virtue of my duty |
| 01:17:50 |
I couldn't shirk my duty |
| 01:17:52 |
and I have never tried to. |
| 01:17:55 |
But I didn't act willingly |
| 01:17:59 |
as my initial efforts clearly show. |
| 01:18:09 |
The following is a report |
| 01:18:12 |
of a meeting |
| 01:18:14 |
where it was decided |
| 01:18:16 |
how frequently the trains should run |
| 01:18:18 |
from Warsaw to Treblinka, |
| 01:18:20 |
from Radom to Treblinka, |
| 01:18:22 |
from Cracow to Belzec, |
| 01:18:24 |
from Lvov to Belzec, |
| 01:18:27 |
determining two trains a day |
| 01:18:31 |
one a day from Radom to Treblinka, |
| 01:18:34 |
one a day from Cracow to Belzec, |
| 01:18:36 |
one a day from Lvov to Belzec, |
| 01:18:39 |
one a day from Radom to Sobibor, |
| 01:18:42 |
one a day from the Northern station |
| 01:18:46 |
one a day from the Central station |
| 01:18:52 |
and so on and so forth. |
| 01:18:54 |
Did you know |
| 01:18:55 |
that sometimes |
| 01:18:57 |
on these transports, |
| 01:19:00 |
hundreds of people died |
| 01:19:01 |
before they even reached |
| 01:19:08 |
No, I didn't know. |
| 01:19:09 |
I wasn't responsible |
| 01:19:13 |
It was the duty of the Order Police. |
| 01:19:16 |
But I did hear and read about it. |
| 01:19:20 |
You did nothing to prevent it. |
| 01:19:25 |
Had I had the power to prevent this, |
| 01:19:29 |
I wouldn't even have started, |
| 01:19:32 |
but rather acted according |
| 01:19:35 |
There was nothing you could do |
| 01:19:41 |
Your Honour, |
| 01:19:45 |
The orders given to the Order Police |
| 01:19:48 |
were given to them |
| 01:19:49 |
and it was up to them |
| 01:19:52 |
From my post in Berlin |
| 01:19:55 |
what was going on |
| 01:20:02 |
Look at the bottom of the first page |
| 01:20:04 |
where it says... |
| 01:20:08 |
"The task of this department..." |
| 01:20:11 |
Yes. |
| 01:20:13 |
It defines four tasks... |
| 01:20:20 |
"Registration of persons... |
| 01:20:22 |
"...of one group of individuals. |
| 01:20:23 |
- "Concentration... |
| 01:20:25 |
- "Deportation... |
| 01:20:27 |
"Confiscation of posessions. |
| 01:20:29 |
... concentration, confiscation..." |
| 01:20:31 |
Yes... yes. |
| 01:20:33 |
Weren't they part of your work, |
| 01:20:38 |
these four tasks? |
| 01:20:43 |
Yes, that's correct. |
| 01:20:44 |
The Security Police chief |
| 01:20:47 |
via the head of department |
| 01:20:49 |
if this was necessary. |
| 01:20:53 |
And the head of department IV |
| 01:20:56 |
to carry them out |
| 01:20:57 |
In other words |
| 01:21:05 |
One can't exactly say passive. |
| 01:21:06 |
I did what I have just described |
| 01:21:10 |
and I obeyed and executed |
| 01:21:15 |
But the order |
| 01:21:20 |
But if that had been so, |
| 01:21:23 |
Heydrich would have told me, |
| 01:21:27 |
"Eichmann, it's all settled, |
| 01:21:29 |
get on with it, do what you want |
| 01:21:34 |
But it didn't happen like that. |
| 01:21:37 |
Himmler continued |
| 01:21:41 |
and the hundreds of offices involved |
| 01:21:44 |
in some way had to fulfil their part |
| 01:21:47 |
in the operation. |
| 01:21:49 |
Unfortunately |
| 01:21:53 |
Regarding these measures, |
| 01:21:56 |
I had been ordered to deal with. |
| 01:21:58 |
I've never denied it |
| 01:22:01 |
You claim you weren't |
| 01:22:06 |
that you contributed |
| 01:22:08 |
Is it true? Did you say that? |
| 01:22:10 |
No, I don't believe so. |
| 01:22:12 |
- What, you didn't think? |
| 01:22:14 |
You didn't think? |
| 01:22:18 |
You didn't contribute |
| 01:22:20 |
Contribute? |
| 01:22:21 |
- Yes! |
| 01:22:24 |
- You're not an idiot? |
| 01:22:26 |
- An idealist, then? |
| 01:22:27 |
So, it's true |
| 01:22:28 |
what it says here! |
| 01:22:30 |
I was not a... |
| 01:22:33 |
It's in writing, here! |
| 01:22:35 |
I dealt with Jewish affairs |
| 01:22:38 |
out of idealism |
| 01:22:39 |
as long as the values involved |
| 01:22:43 |
but not |
| 01:22:44 |
when they were destructive. |
| 01:22:47 |
As to the negative things, |
| 01:22:51 |
but as a pessimist. |
| 01:23:02 |
When in several passages... |
| 01:23:06 |
you use |
| 01:23:07 |
the terms: |
| 01:23:09 |
"As far as we're concerned, |
| 01:23:12 |
does it mean, |
| 01:23:14 |
that practicalities |
| 01:23:17 |
of both the capacity |
| 01:23:20 |
That the deportation could commence? |
| 01:23:22 |
Yes, because it says: |
| 01:23:25 |
You wrote it yourself. |
| 01:23:29 |
I signed the letter, |
| 01:23:34 |
this can easily be explained, |
| 01:23:36 |
as the documents were exchanged |
| 01:23:41 |
I will not allow |
| 01:23:45 |
If you wish to listen |
| 01:23:49 |
As a rule, |
| 01:23:51 |
instructions for drafting letters |
| 01:23:54 |
were given to the section |
| 01:23:58 |
The section thus had to follow |
| 01:24:03 |
and write the letter. |
| 01:24:06 |
Normally, the letter was altered |
| 01:24:11 |
on the function of its recipient. |
| 01:24:13 |
The head of department |
| 01:24:16 |
by a system of coloured crosses, |
| 01:24:20 |
if he wanted to sign |
| 01:24:26 |
or have it signed |
| 01:24:30 |
These... |
| 01:24:32 |
these instructions were communicated |
| 01:24:35 |
by a blue cross or a red one... |
| 01:24:38 |
That is irrelevant! We expect |
| 01:24:41 |
precise answers |
| 01:24:45 |
as far as you are able |
| 01:24:48 |
Do you understand? |
| 01:24:50 |
You admit that if such a letter, |
| 01:24:52 |
even if drafted |
| 01:24:56 |
was signed by your hand, |
| 01:24:57 |
you are responsible |
| 01:25:01 |
Of course, if I signed the letter |
| 01:25:03 |
I was authorised to do so |
| 01:25:06 |
Since he's not here to testify, |
| 01:25:11 |
That was not my question. |
| 01:25:12 |
Do you assume the responsibility |
| 01:25:18 |
I cannot assume it |
| 01:25:20 |
since I do not see |
| 01:25:22 |
why I should be punished |
| 01:25:28 |
in accordance with my orders. |
| 01:25:33 |
You have said this |
| 01:25:36 |
I assure you we have not forgotten. |
| 01:25:38 |
I assure you |
| 01:25:41 |
that your argument |
| 01:25:45 |
But it was you who drafted them, |
| 01:25:47 |
who gave them, wasn't it? |
| 01:25:53 |
I apologise. I had forgotten. |
| 01:25:56 |
You said that this morning. |
| 01:25:57 |
But it is unacceptable for me |
| 01:26:03 |
that I gave orders to a commander. |
| 01:26:06 |
That makes me react automatically. |
| 01:26:09 |
I can't stop myself. I will avoid |
| 01:26:12 |
Yes. It is quite clear |
| 01:26:14 |
that your reactions are automatic. |
| 01:26:19 |
I ask you to refrain |
| 01:26:25 |
Continue. |
| 01:26:27 |
It says: "I will give |
| 01:26:30 |
Are you still trying to tell me: |
| 01:26:35 |
No, no! |
| 01:26:38 |
It's German bureaucratic language. |
| 01:26:44 |
I wasn't writing private letters. |
| 01:27:11 |
We turn now |
| 01:27:16 |
given here as T/37... |
| 01:27:20 |
93 in brackets, |
| 01:27:22 |
where it states: |
| 01:27:23 |
"Eichmann summoned the Jewish |
| 01:27:27 |
"to set out his plan. |
| 01:27:31 |
"There Lieutenant-colonel S.S. |
| 01:27:35 |
"First he spoke |
| 01:27:38 |
"saying that the Jewish Council |
| 01:27:42 |
"He said that about 3 million |
| 01:27:44 |
"would be needed. |
| 01:27:47 |
"He also had to be notified |
| 01:27:50 |
"of any change of address |
| 01:27:54 |
"If the Jews behaved correctly, |
| 01:27:56 |
nothing would happen to them. " |
| 01:27:58 |
Further on in the deposition, |
| 01:28:01 |
"Eichmann mentioned his great |
| 01:28:07 |
"He has been dealing |
| 01:28:10 |
"and he speaks Hebrew |
| 01:28:14 |
"We told him that our museum |
| 01:28:16 |
"contained very old books |
| 01:28:20 |
"He said he would visit it. |
| 01:28:22 |
"The Jewish community |
| 01:28:24 |
what is demanded of them |
| 01:28:30 |
Mr. Freudiger, did you meet |
| 01:28:33 |
Adolf Eichmann in Budapest? |
| 01:28:35 |
Yes. |
| 01:28:38 |
How long did this meeting last? |
| 01:28:40 |
Half and hour, at most. |
| 01:28:42 |
From what you have said, |
| 01:28:45 |
the general tone was reassuring. |
| 01:28:47 |
Yes, absolutely. |
| 01:28:50 |
I don't remember exactly |
| 01:28:52 |
or the second meeting, |
| 01:28:55 |
that all the Jewish community |
| 01:28:58 |
as everything |
| 01:29:04 |
"Responsible for us |
| 01:29:08 |
How many members |
| 01:29:09 |
or representatives did this council, |
| 01:29:13 |
to the Germans, consist of? |
| 01:29:16 |
They said that... |
| 01:29:19 |
no more than four or five persons. |
| 01:29:21 |
They didn't called it 'Judenrat'. |
| 01:29:24 |
This was also intended |
| 01:29:28 |
as it was well known |
| 01:29:31 |
They called it the 'Zentralrat', |
| 01:29:35 |
of the Jewish community. |
| 01:29:38 |
There were seven members. |
| 01:29:41 |
At the same meeting, |
| 01:29:48 |
the accused proposed or agreed |
| 01:29:51 |
to exempt close relatives |
| 01:29:54 |
Close relatives of whom? |
| 01:29:57 |
Close relatives |
| 01:30:02 |
Had you requested this? |
| 01:30:04 |
No, we had not. |
| 01:30:08 |
One more question. To what extent |
| 01:30:10 |
did you give information |
| 01:30:12 |
about what was happening |
| 01:30:16 |
to the various communities |
| 01:30:20 |
which had been deported, |
| 01:30:21 |
before and during the deportations? |
| 01:30:24 |
By the time we knew |
| 01:30:26 |
when we realised what Auschwitz was, |
| 01:30:30 |
the Jews from the east |
| 01:30:36 |
300,000 of them, |
| 01:30:40 |
We informed them. |
| 01:30:43 |
They already knew |
| 01:30:45 |
But what could we do? |
| 01:30:51 |
No, no! |
| 01:30:53 |
Remove that man! |
| 01:30:55 |
Silence in court! |
| 01:30:58 |
Silence in court! |
| 01:31:00 |
If order is not restored, I will |
| 01:31:02 |
adjourn the hearing! |
| 01:31:09 |
For the last time, |
| 01:31:13 |
You can discuss it later. |
| 01:31:16 |
I beg your pardon, your Honour. |
| 01:31:19 |
With reference to what I said |
| 01:31:21 |
just now, before the incident, |
| 01:31:24 |
people now say |
| 01:31:26 |
that they were not told to flee. |
| 01:31:29 |
But 50% of those who fled |
| 01:31:32 |
were captured and killed. |
| 01:31:36 |
So we would have been reproached |
| 01:31:38 |
They were caught |
| 01:31:40 |
simply because they didn't have |
| 01:31:44 |
I am not sure whether |
| 01:31:48 |
Him! Him! |
| 01:31:50 |
They reassured us |
| 01:31:54 |
Remove that man. |
| 01:31:59 |
Court rise! |
| 01:32:15 |
It didn't trouble you |
| 01:32:17 |
to be the big forwarding |
| 01:32:23 |
It troubled me greatly, |
| 01:32:26 |
more than anyone |
| 01:32:27 |
could imagine. |
| 01:32:30 |
I repeatedly went to my superior |
| 01:32:35 |
to request a transfer |
| 01:32:40 |
- I... |
| 01:32:43 |
No, not in writing, |
| 01:32:45 |
Never in writing. |
| 01:32:47 |
Yes. |
| 01:32:53 |
I would like to know... |
| 01:32:57 |
how many times a week |
| 01:32:59 |
Mr Lieutenant-colonel? |
| 01:33:03 |
At least twice. |
| 01:33:06 |
Some weeks, |
| 01:33:11 |
every day, |
| 01:33:14 |
either by telephone |
| 01:33:17 |
Officially I reported to him |
| 01:33:23 |
with my files... |
| 01:33:28 |
How long did these meetings last? |
| 01:33:33 |
In general, |
| 01:33:35 |
they lasted an hour, |
| 01:33:39 |
You say that during the course |
| 01:33:43 |
you settled questions |
| 01:33:50 |
Is that correct? |
| 01:33:52 |
Yes, I gave him the files |
| 01:33:56 |
collected in my folder |
| 01:34:00 |
and asked for his instructions. |
| 01:34:02 |
Either decisions |
| 01:34:05 |
to discuss with his superior. |
| 01:34:07 |
That's what the procedure was. |
| 01:34:13 |
Are you saying |
| 01:34:15 |
that he dictated everything to you |
| 01:34:21 |
Or did you participate |
| 01:34:24 |
Are you a Lieutenant-colonel |
| 01:34:25 |
or a shorthand typist? |
| 01:34:31 |
I have just told you in detail |
| 01:34:34 |
the manner in which this happened |
| 01:34:39 |
Muller's decisions and instructions |
| 01:34:43 |
on which we based ourselves |
| 01:34:51 |
- Shall we move on? |
| 01:34:55 |
You recall the sterilisations... |
| 01:34:58 |
Mr. Hausner, first I have |
| 01:35:00 |
Yes, your Honour. |
| 01:35:02 |
If I understand correctly, |
| 01:35:06 |
One category of cases |
| 01:35:08 |
where a precedent already existed, |
| 01:35:13 |
...and you acted on your own. |
| 01:35:15 |
The second category... |
| 01:35:17 |
consisted of cases for which |
| 01:35:20 |
- I had to consult Muller. |
| 01:35:24 |
That is correct. |
| 01:35:25 |
The third category |
| 01:35:28 |
maybe yes, maybe no. |
| 01:35:31 |
Did you make any kind of proposal? |
| 01:35:33 |
Or how would you define it? |
| 01:35:35 |
No, not a proposal. |
| 01:35:37 |
I drew his attention to the fact |
| 01:35:40 |
that a fortnight |
| 01:35:44 |
he had taken a particular decision |
| 01:35:46 |
I would ask him if the same |
| 01:35:49 |
on the basis of the decision |
| 01:35:53 |
My assistant also had |
| 01:35:56 |
- Without making a proposal? |
| 01:35:59 |
This created extra work |
| 01:36:02 |
as a memorandum had to be made |
| 01:36:06 |
on account of every trifle. |
| 01:36:09 |
If that was so, |
| 01:36:12 |
why didn't Muller |
| 01:36:19 |
I can't say. |
| 01:36:22 |
Perhaps because |
| 01:36:26 |
very meticulous, |
| 01:36:28 |
and because I followed instructions |
| 01:36:33 |
Muller was also... |
| 01:36:37 |
He was an official |
| 01:36:39 |
who had achieved a high position |
| 01:36:44 |
Maybe that was one of the reasons. |
| 01:36:49 |
And my manner of dealing with people |
| 01:36:53 |
was not brusque, |
| 01:36:57 |
to get involved in petty feuding |
| 01:37:02 |
As is often the case |
| 01:37:06 |
there are people |
| 01:37:09 |
purely for reasons |
| 01:37:14 |
I simply obeyed orders |
| 01:37:18 |
Perhaps that was why... |
| 01:37:26 |
I will also permit myself |
| 01:37:27 |
to depart |
| 01:37:31 |
by abandoning Hebrew for a moment |
| 01:37:33 |
to address the accused |
| 01:37:39 |
Did you never experience... |
| 01:37:43 |
a conflict... |
| 01:37:46 |
what one could call |
| 01:37:49 |
Between your... |
| 01:37:51 |
duty and your conscience? |
| 01:37:54 |
One could call it |
| 01:37:56 |
Being split? |
| 01:37:58 |
A conscious split state, |
| 01:38:02 |
where one could flee |
| 01:38:07 |
It was necessary to abandon |
| 01:38:09 |
one's personal conscience? |
| 01:38:11 |
Yes, one could say that. |
| 01:38:14 |
Because one could not control |
| 01:38:18 |
Except if one accepted |
| 01:38:21 |
One could have said: |
| 01:38:25 |
But I don't know |
| 01:38:29 |
If there had been |
| 01:38:32 |
things would have been different. |
| 01:38:35 |
Don't you think so? |
| 01:38:37 |
Of course, if this civil courage |
| 01:38:42 |
Then it wasn't a fate... |
| 01:38:46 |
an inevitable fate? |
| 01:38:48 |
It's a question of human behaviour. |
| 01:38:51 |
That's how it happened, |
| 01:38:54 |
everyone thought: |
| 01:38:58 |
"it's only a drop in the ocean, |
| 01:39:00 |
There's no point in it |
| 01:39:06 |
It was also connected |
| 01:39:11 |
with the era, |
| 01:39:16 |
rigid discipline, |
| 01:39:21 |
At that time, |
| 01:39:25 |
for an individual... |
| 01:39:29 |
to accept the consequences... |
| 01:39:33 |
of refusing to obey orders. |
| 01:39:36 |
One was living at a time |
| 01:39:41 |
where crime was legalised |
| 01:39:44 |
by the state. |
| 01:39:47 |
It was the responsibility |
| 01:39:56 |
According to you, |
| 01:40:00 |
is defined as someone... |
| 01:40:04 |
who executes the orders |
| 01:40:07 |
to the best of his ability. |
| 01:40:10 |
For me, that meant |
| 01:40:12 |
adherence to the nationalism |
| 01:40:17 |
as a nationalist, to do my duty |
| 01:40:21 |
That's how I understood it. |
| 01:40:23 |
Today I realise |
| 01:40:28 |
taken to extremes, |
| 01:40:31 |
leads to gross egoism |
| 01:40:33 |
and from there, it is only |
| 01:40:41 |
The general outlines, |
| 01:40:44 |
both strategic and tactical, |
| 01:40:46 |
of the extermination of the Jews |
| 01:40:48 |
were planned as a campaign |
| 01:40:51 |
on psychological... |
| 01:40:55 |
like psychological warfare, |
| 01:40:57 |
using tactical deception... |
| 01:41:01 |
and so on. |
| 01:41:04 |
I believe |
| 01:41:07 |
during the course of events. |
| 01:41:13 |
Himmler gave orders directly. |
| 01:41:19 |
I do not think |
| 01:41:20 |
that originally |
| 01:41:25 |
a discussion about |
| 01:41:28 |
in which the whole thing was planned |
| 01:41:32 |
I believe it somehow |
| 01:41:38 |
So you say it evolved organically |
| 01:41:42 |
Yes. That's how I'd describe it. |
| 01:41:45 |
For example, |
| 01:41:47 |
first there were |
| 01:41:51 |
in Vienna, |
| 01:41:53 |
Prague |
| 01:41:54 |
and then Berlin... |
| 01:41:57 |
which were placed |
| 01:42:01 |
for the purpose of emigration. |
| 01:42:03 |
First centralisation |
| 01:42:07 |
took place, together |
| 01:42:11 |
I am talking about |
| 01:42:12 |
the supervision by the Gestapo. |
| 01:42:14 |
Yes. |
| 01:42:17 |
The Jewish representatives |
| 01:42:20 |
the task... |
| 01:42:24 |
of registering |
| 01:42:27 |
for the purpose of emigration, |
| 01:42:31 |
to settle the question |
| 01:42:35 |
and to set up |
| 01:42:39 |
which greatly facilitated |
| 01:42:43 |
And rapidly and smoothly, |
| 01:42:45 |
this switched to deportation. |
| 01:42:48 |
Yes. |
| 01:42:51 |
Then there was the idea |
| 01:42:53 |
of the Jewish Councils... |
| 01:42:56 |
in Poland. |
| 01:42:58 |
Yes. |
| 01:42:59 |
Then in Hungary, |
| 01:43:02 |
and before that in Holland. |
| 01:43:05 |
This must have started in Holland, |
| 01:43:07 |
with the Jewish Council |
| 01:43:09 |
then in Poland, |
| 01:43:12 |
and then finally in Hungary. |
| 01:43:14 |
Yes. |
| 01:43:15 |
These Jewish Councils, |
| 01:43:18 |
as instruments... |
| 01:43:24 |
of the German policy |
| 01:43:29 |
largely facilitated the application |
| 01:43:34 |
of the measures |
| 01:43:38 |
and saved a great deal of manpower, |
| 01:43:41 |
police as well as officials. |
| 01:43:44 |
Yes. |
| 01:43:45 |
The councils, |
| 01:43:47 |
by misleading the victims... |
| 01:43:54 |
made this work easier, |
| 01:43:56 |
and put the Jews to work |
| 01:43:59 |
for their own extermination. |
| 01:44:04 |
Yes, |
| 01:44:06 |
that is correct. |
| 01:44:13 |
Please translate. |
| 01:44:20 |
Sit down during the translation, |
| 01:44:33 |
He can put on his headphones, |
| 01:44:44 |
When you gave the order... |
| 01:44:48 |
in T/476... |
| 01:44:53 |
which corresponds to our 266... |
| 01:44:57 |
to send the transports |
| 01:45:00 |
to Cholm, |
| 01:45:03 |
where were they headed? |
| 01:45:16 |
It says here: to Cholm. |
| 01:45:19 |
In other words, to Sobibor! |
| 01:45:23 |
As far as I know, |
| 01:45:27 |
But it's the station |
| 01:45:30 |
to Sobibor, to Treblinka, |
| 01:45:33 |
and to Majdanek. |
| 01:45:34 |
It says: "Cholm", |
| 01:45:37 |
It says: "via Cholm". |
| 01:45:41 |
People were sent from Cholm? |
| 01:45:46 |
When you gave orders |
| 01:45:48 |
to transport people to Cholm, |
| 01:45:51 |
what was their final destination? |
| 01:45:52 |
The death camps! |
| 01:45:54 |
Will you finally tell us? |
| 01:45:56 |
You say you don't want to evade |
| 01:45:59 |
To Cholm. In my statement, I said |
| 01:46:03 |
that my superior sent me there |
| 01:46:05 |
and that I had seen |
| 01:46:07 |
and had written a report on it. |
| 01:46:09 |
No, you were talking about Kulmhof! |
| 01:46:11 |
- Chelmno. |
| 01:46:13 |
It's not the same place! |
| 01:46:14 |
Kulm is Chelmno. |
| 01:46:16 |
Kulm - hof! |
| 01:46:18 |
- All right, Kulm or Kulmhof... |
| 01:46:21 |
...is the Polish name for Chelm! |
| 01:46:24 |
No, there's a Kulm in the Warthegau. |
| 01:46:26 |
Yes, yes. |
| 01:46:27 |
And Kulmhof is the same place. |
| 01:46:29 |
- Yes, but it's not Cholm. |
| 01:46:32 |
I say that in Polish, Kolm, |
| 01:46:36 |
No, there's a Chelmno and a Chelm. |
| 01:46:39 |
Yes, all right, agreed, |
| 01:46:43 |
but what is the Polish name |
| 01:46:47 |
For Kulmhof? Chelmno. |
| 01:46:49 |
But that's what I said! |
| 01:46:52 |
But it's not Cholm. |
| 01:46:55 |
- Kulm and Kulmhof are close. |
| 01:46:59 |
That's what I think. |
| 01:47:02 |
I'm sorry, |
| 01:47:05 |
The Kolm in this telegram, Kolm. |
| 01:47:07 |
- Cholm! |
| 01:47:08 |
It isn't in the Warthegau... |
| 01:47:10 |
No, it's in the General Government. |
| 01:47:12 |
It's the famous Chelm. |
| 01:47:14 |
Does the accused know that? |
| 01:47:18 |
- Ask him! |
| 01:47:20 |
I ask the accused: |
| 01:47:22 |
It's not Kulm or Kulmhof |
| 01:47:27 |
Yes, it says: "General Goverment". |
| 01:47:29 |
I thought that Cholm |
| 01:47:34 |
But I'm not trying to avoid |
| 01:47:39 |
is implying. |
| 01:47:40 |
In my statement, |
| 01:47:43 |
But when I read "Cholm", |
| 01:47:46 |
I was sure that was |
| 01:47:49 |
From there, |
| 01:47:51 |
- weren't they? |
| 01:47:54 |
but it is entirely possible, |
| 01:47:55 |
and I am not denying it, |
| 01:47:58 |
that it was also a death camp. |
| 01:48:01 |
But I don't know. |
| 01:48:30 |
I was ordered to present myself |
| 01:48:33 |
He told me: |
| 01:48:35 |
"The F? hrer has ordered |
| 01:48:38 |
the physical extermination |
| 01:48:41 |
He ordered me |
| 01:48:43 |
to go to Lublin |
| 01:48:46 |
and contact Globocnik. |
| 01:48:50 |
I arrived in Lublin. |
| 01:48:52 |
The facilities |
| 01:48:55 |
I returned to Berlin |
| 01:48:58 |
to my superior, General Muller, |
| 01:49:02 |
and to the chief |
| 01:49:04 |
in accordance with my orders, |
| 01:49:06 |
on what I had seen. |
| 01:49:11 |
In the case of the second journey, |
| 01:49:15 |
but Muller who ordered it. |
| 01:49:18 |
He told me to go to the Warthegau |
| 01:49:23 |
and informed me that |
| 01:49:28 |
Jews were being gassed, |
| 01:49:31 |
and he requested a report |
| 01:49:36 |
At Kulmhof, I observed this process |
| 01:49:41 |
I took notes, |
| 01:49:44 |
returned to Berlin, |
| 01:49:47 |
and made my report to Muller |
| 01:49:51 |
After I had made my report |
| 01:49:56 |
for the first time |
| 01:49:58 |
to transfer me to other duties, |
| 01:50:01 |
saying I was not the right man |
| 01:50:06 |
Muller answered |
| 01:50:08 |
that a soldier at the front |
| 01:50:11 |
where he was posted |
| 01:50:15 |
wherever he was sent. |
| 01:50:25 |
After my visit to Kulm, |
| 01:50:29 |
Muller sent me on another mission, |
| 01:50:32 |
this time to Minsk. |
| 01:50:36 |
Muller told me that executions |
| 01:50:40 |
He wanted a report on this. |
| 01:50:43 |
There an extermination operation |
| 01:50:50 |
I saw machine gunners |
| 01:50:54 |
who were standing in a ditch. |
| 01:50:57 |
It was on that occasion |
| 01:51:00 |
that I saw, as I have said, |
| 01:51:05 |
a child shot in its mother's arms. |
| 01:51:12 |
It was after visiting these places |
| 01:51:18 |
and having made my report |
| 01:51:22 |
that I was ordered to Auschwitz |
| 01:51:27 |
to report to Muller on this matter. |
| 01:51:34 |
Subsequently, I received an order |
| 01:51:37 |
to go to Lublin again. |
| 01:51:40 |
I was to deliver |
| 01:51:44 |
a letter |
| 01:51:46 |
which instructed him... |
| 01:51:49 |
which authorised him |
| 01:51:51 |
to kill 150,000 or 250,000 Jews. |
| 01:51:57 |
I can remember hearing |
| 01:52:00 |
that Globocnik had the strange idea |
| 01:52:05 |
of having written authorisation |
| 01:52:09 |
He'd apparently requested it. |
| 01:52:12 |
I also remember |
| 01:52:14 |
as I was driving |
| 01:52:19 |
I saw something |
| 01:52:21 |
I had never seen before: |
| 01:52:24 |
A fountain of blood. |
| 01:52:27 |
I came to a place |
| 01:52:30 |
where some Jews had been shot |
| 01:52:34 |
Probably due |
| 01:52:38 |
the blood was shooting up |
| 01:52:45 |
Those were the four journeys |
| 01:52:49 |
and where I had direct contact |
| 01:52:52 |
with the extermination of the Jews. |
| 01:52:55 |
I was in contact |
| 01:52:57 |
against my will. |
| 01:52:59 |
I had to obey. |
| 01:53:00 |
I had to do it. |
| 01:53:02 |
I have nothing more to say |
| 01:53:46 |
Someone involved |
| 01:53:48 |
was he a criminal in your eyes? |
| 01:53:58 |
He was unfortunate. |
| 01:54:01 |
Was he a criminal? |
| 01:54:02 |
I can't answer this question, |
| 01:54:04 |
as I was never put |
| 01:54:11 |
You saw Hoess doing it at Auschwitz. |
| 01:54:13 |
Did you think he was a criminal, |
| 01:54:17 |
A criminal or not? |
| 01:54:21 |
I felt sorry for him and pitied him. |
| 01:54:22 |
Did you consider him |
| 01:54:26 |
I refuse to reveal |
| 01:54:31 |
I appeal to the Court. |
| 01:54:32 |
You must reply to all questions |
| 01:54:35 |
unless I tell you otherwise. |
| 01:54:41 |
Yes, your Honour, |
| 01:54:44 |
but I feel as if I'm being grilled |
| 01:54:48 |
Carry on, Mr. Hausner. |
| 01:54:50 |
You cannot evade the question. |
| 01:54:52 |
What did you think |
| 01:54:54 |
of the extermination programme, |
| 01:54:57 |
and the people who carried it out? |
| 01:55:03 |
A man can be put in a situation |
| 01:55:06 |
which drives him almost mad |
| 01:55:09 |
and where it is only a small step, |
| 01:55:13 |
taken without reflection, |
| 01:55:15 |
before he reaches for his pistol. |
| 01:55:18 |
Each individual is free to react |
| 01:55:21 |
in his own way. |
| 01:55:23 |
I can only say how I would probably |
| 01:55:27 |
have reacted. |
| 01:55:29 |
If I had been ordered |
| 01:55:31 |
to carry out the extermination, |
| 01:55:33 |
I would probably have shot myself |
| 01:55:36 |
I think. |
| 01:55:37 |
I can't say for sure |
| 01:55:40 |
But... |
| 01:55:43 |
knowing my own reactions |
| 01:55:46 |
and what I knew, then, |
| 01:55:48 |
I believe that I would have |
| 01:55:52 |
in order to remove myself... |
| 01:55:55 |
from this situation. |
| 01:56:03 |
During the course |
| 01:56:05 |
by the police, |
| 01:56:07 |
you stated: |
| 01:56:12 |
"I know that I will be found guilty |
| 01:56:17 |
"of complicity to murder. |
| 01:56:23 |
"I know that I risk |
| 01:56:27 |
"I do not ask for mercy |
| 01:56:30 |
because I do not deserve it. " |
| 01:56:34 |
You said |
| 01:56:35 |
that you were prepared |
| 01:56:38 |
to atone |
| 01:56:39 |
for the abominable crimes |
| 01:56:42 |
Those are your own words, |
| 01:56:45 |
taken from page 361 |
| 01:56:49 |
Do you admit that you are complicit |
| 01:56:51 |
in the murder of millions of Jews? |
| 01:56:56 |
- From the legal point of view... |
| 01:57:01 |
In your conscience, |
| 01:57:03 |
do you consider yourself |
| 01:57:07 |
in the murder of millions of Jews, |
| 01:57:16 |
In human terms, yes. |
| 01:57:19 |
Because I am guilty |
| 01:57:23 |
Remorse changes nothing, |
| 01:57:25 |
it won't bring anyone back to life. |
| 01:57:27 |
Remorse is pointless. |
| 01:57:29 |
Remorse is for little children. |
| 01:57:33 |
What is more important |
| 01:57:35 |
to prevent these things |
| 01:57:38 |
And I intend to request permission, |
| 01:57:42 |
after the trial is over, |
| 01:57:45 |
to treat these matters |
| 01:57:49 |
quite openly. |
| 01:57:52 |
There I am prepared |
| 01:57:56 |
as a warning |
| 01:58:00 |
One moment, Mr. Hausner. |
| 01:58:02 |
I wish to address the accused. |
| 01:58:05 |
You must understand |
| 01:58:09 |
to say everything you would write |
| 01:58:12 |
in this book |
| 01:58:19 |
Since you have asked me, |
| 01:58:22 |
to give a clear answer, |
| 01:58:26 |
I must state |
| 01:58:27 |
that I consider this murder, |
| 01:58:33 |
to be one of the greatest crimes |
| 01:58:36 |
in the history of mankind. |
| 01:58:38 |
In conclusion, I would like to state |
| 01:58:40 |
that even at that time, |
| 01:58:45 |
that this violent solution |
| 01:58:46 |
was not justified. |
| 01:58:49 |
...was not justified. |
| 01:58:53 |
Even at that time, I considered it |
| 01:58:57 |
I was unfortunately bound |
| 01:59:02 |
and my work |
| 01:59:03 |
entailed the organisation |
| 01:59:07 |
And I could not be released |
| 01:59:12 |
I do not feel responsible |
| 01:59:16 |
I felt free of guilt. |
| 01:59:20 |
I was very relieved |
| 01:59:22 |
that I had nothing to do |
| 01:59:26 |
that I had nothing to do. |
| 01:59:27 |
The work I was ordered to do |
| 01:59:29 |
was plenty enough for me. |
| 01:59:33 |
I was suited to the work |
| 01:59:37 |
I did my duty |
| 01:59:41 |
And I was never reprimanded |
| 01:59:45 |
for not having fulfilled my duty. |
| 01:59:48 |
...for not having fulfilled my duty. |
| 01:59:50 |
I still stand by that today. |
