|
Avocat de la terreur L Terror s Advocate
|
| 00:01:12 |
Jacques Vergès wrote... |
| 00:01:18 |
that he knew me for 20 or 30 years... |
| 00:01:24 |
as someone polite, discreet... |
| 00:01:30 |
and smiling. |
| 00:01:52 |
Some say the genocide |
| 00:01:56 |
I say it wasn't. |
| 00:01:58 |
There were deaths and famine, |
| 00:02:03 |
There was reprehensible |
| 00:02:07 |
But not on millions of people. |
| 00:02:11 |
About the number of deaths: |
| 00:02:17 |
with the number of alleged victims. |
| 00:02:30 |
Torture and crimes were committed, |
| 00:02:34 |
The U.S. Bombardments |
| 00:02:37 |
or the famine from the U.S. Embargo |
| 00:02:41 |
It became a package, and it was |
| 00:03:34 |
Fiighting in awarseemed |
| 00:03:37 |
risky to me, |
| 00:03:41 |
And under De Gaulle, |
| 00:03:46 |
It felt like total happiness. |
| 00:03:50 |
To me, France isn't the settlers, |
| 00:03:54 |
it's Montaigne, it's Diderot, |
| 00:03:57 |
the French Revolution. |
| 00:04:00 |
For France to disappear |
| 00:04:04 |
That's why I enlisted. |
| 00:04:11 |
I could've stepped on a mine |
| 00:04:14 |
It was one of my big fears. |
| 00:04:16 |
Or be disfigured, |
| 00:04:20 |
It didn't happen. |
| 00:04:22 |
I'd have lost my nose, |
| 00:04:26 |
My opinions |
| 00:04:29 |
even though I'd have been bitter. |
| 00:04:32 |
This is my only warwound: |
| 00:04:35 |
Eating oysters in Tremblade, |
| 00:04:38 |
before disembarking at Oléron. |
| 00:04:40 |
I was so greedy |
| 00:04:42 |
that my British Army knife |
| 00:04:46 |
Oall it luck, or grace! |
| 00:04:50 |
While in France |
| 00:04:55 |
here in Algeria on May 8, 1945, |
| 00:04:58 |
it was more like a day of mourning. |
| 00:05:01 |
The Sétif massacres |
| 00:05:04 |
that's what's so appalling. |
| 00:05:07 |
The day Gemany surrendered, |
| 00:05:10 |
Frenchmen slaughtered Algerians. |
| 00:05:14 |
Numbers always vary |
| 00:05:17 |
The minimum number is 10,000. |
| 00:05:19 |
The United States consulate |
| 00:05:30 |
May 8, 1945, was the day |
| 00:05:36 |
and we felt we'd been |
| 00:05:39 |
We called |
| 00:05:43 |
with our slogans, and ourflag. |
| 00:05:47 |
To carry a flag |
| 00:05:49 |
was a crime, an insult to France |
| 00:05:53 |
for the French settlers. |
| 00:05:55 |
The orders were: If you see |
| 00:06:01 |
So the massacre took place. |
| 00:06:49 |
The place where I was born |
| 00:06:53 |
is known to all Algerians |
| 00:06:54 |
for the repressive terror |
| 00:06:58 |
May 8, 1945 stands |
| 00:07:02 |
and Kherrata. I'm from Kherrata. |
| 00:07:07 |
This massacre took place in 1945, |
| 00:07:12 |
and in 1954 the revolution broke out. |
| 00:07:16 |
The two events are connected. |
| 00:07:18 |
It was General Duval who said: |
| 00:07:20 |
"It got us peace for ten years." |
| 00:07:24 |
In a lawsuit in France, |
| 00:07:27 |
one of my clients, a friend, said: |
| 00:07:31 |
"I was ten years old, |
| 00:07:34 |
"my parents drove me |
| 00:07:41 |
"and said: Never forget that!" |
| 00:07:44 |
So those massacres heralded |
| 00:07:55 |
I was a colonel, |
| 00:07:56 |
in charge of military operations |
| 00:08:01 |
...of greaterAlgiers |
| 00:08:05 |
of the autonomous zone |
| 00:08:09 |
because it depended on no one, |
| 00:08:43 |
Extremist French settlers |
| 00:08:45 |
a powerful one... |
| 00:08:49 |
it killed dozens. |
| 00:08:54 |
I went there at the time |
| 00:08:56 |
and I helped pull out |
| 00:09:03 |
The local people wanted to rush |
| 00:09:09 |
kill them, start a civil war. |
| 00:09:12 |
We stopped them... |
| 00:09:14 |
and said: |
| 00:09:18 |
"We, the FLN army will avenge you." |
| 00:09:26 |
For the Milk-Bar. |
| 00:09:33 |
Stop! |
| 00:09:41 |
Go on... |
| 00:09:43 |
Excuse me... |
| 00:09:48 |
May I pass, sir? |
| 00:10:42 |
We needed |
| 00:10:45 |
to infiltrate |
| 00:10:49 |
That's how... |
| 00:10:53 |
we started recruiting. |
| 00:10:57 |
who lived in the casbah. |
| 00:11:00 |
I recruited her |
| 00:11:02 |
saying: "Do you agree to do it... |
| 00:11:07 |
"to plant bombs?" |
| 00:11:09 |
She agreed absolutely. |
| 00:11:11 |
Then she started to recruit, |
| 00:11:16 |
That'show |
| 00:11:19 |
a team of girls, |
| 00:11:21 |
and only I decided |
| 00:11:23 |
where bombs would be placed. |
| 00:11:51 |
It was early in the moming. |
| 00:11:56 |
We disguised ourselves as women... |
| 00:12:01 |
the whole group... |
| 00:12:03 |
Zohra Drif, was one of us. |
| 00:12:06 |
As we crossed the casbah |
| 00:12:09 |
suddenly there were patrols. |
| 00:12:12 |
"Stop!" |
| 00:12:14 |
I was 15 meters ahead of the rest, |
| 00:12:19 |
I turned around |
| 00:12:21 |
and I fired... |
| 00:12:23 |
Djamila Bouhired was coming, |
| 00:12:26 |
she was the last, |
| 00:12:30 |
She was hit, and they captured her. |
| 00:12:35 |
The moment she was arrested, |
| 00:12:39 |
I sent Zohra Drif, |
| 00:12:41 |
who knew Djamila well, |
| 00:12:46 |
to find a lawyer. |
| 00:12:49 |
I took law in Paris after literature |
| 00:12:54 |
I was admitted to the bar in 1955. |
| 00:12:57 |
I was 30, so I wasn't a kid |
| 00:13:00 |
but also not very old. |
| 00:13:06 |
I get to Algiers, |
| 00:13:08 |
and at the time I stayed |
| 00:13:11 |
at the Hotel Aleti |
| 00:13:16 |
when an emissary |
| 00:13:20 |
of the autonomous zone |
| 00:13:22 |
came to see me: |
| 00:13:24 |
It was Zohra Drif. |
| 00:13:28 |
I ask for the lawyerfrom Paris. |
| 00:13:30 |
I'm told: "Wait, we'll call him." |
| 00:13:33 |
Then I see Attorney Vergès. |
| 00:13:37 |
Big surprise. |
| 00:13:38 |
First, Vergès, is a very French name, |
| 00:13:40 |
and I see someone |
| 00:13:45 |
by his complexion, his eyes... |
| 00:13:48 |
I was wearing a hijab |
| 00:13:52 |
because I was a wanted person, |
| 00:13:54 |
so all you could see was my eyes. |
| 00:13:58 |
Right away I knew... |
| 00:14:02 |
there was a feeling of mutual trust... |
| 00:14:06 |
I let her know that I... |
| 00:14:11 |
who had a Vietnamese mother, |
| 00:14:14 |
a father from Réunion Island, |
| 00:14:17 |
I sympathized |
| 00:14:20 |
and didn't condemn their violence. |
| 00:14:32 |
I was obsessed by this case |
| 00:14:34 |
as I'd been told |
| 00:14:37 |
was tortured on her hospital bed. |
| 00:14:40 |
Then was handed over |
| 00:14:44 |
I went every day to the Law Oourts |
| 00:14:51 |
Every day I saw the DA. |
| 00:14:53 |
One moming, I asked him: |
| 00:14:57 |
He said: |
| 00:15:00 |
I said: "By which prosecutor?" |
| 00:15:02 |
He gave me the name |
| 00:15:08 |
The prosecutor, a bully, |
| 00:15:14 |
I said Djamila's parents |
| 00:15:18 |
I showed my letter of empowerment. |
| 00:15:23 |
I gave Djamila |
| 00:15:26 |
so she'd realize |
| 00:15:30 |
The DAtried to make her talk. |
| 00:15:32 |
I signaled to her |
| 00:15:35 |
She refused to answer him. |
| 00:15:37 |
Muslim terrorists, |
| 00:15:42 |
to be tried by a military court. |
| 00:15:52 |
We're in front of what was once |
| 00:15:57 |
the permanent military tribunal. |
| 00:15:59 |
This tiny street |
| 00:16:02 |
was filled |
| 00:16:06 |
a mixed crowd of fascist thugs |
| 00:16:11 |
who were in this street |
| 00:16:14 |
We pleaded, |
| 00:16:18 |
who threatened and growled, |
| 00:16:21 |
and all around |
| 00:16:23 |
were reporters who did this |
| 00:16:27 |
The trial took place |
| 00:16:31 |
to the point that one day |
| 00:16:34 |
when the spectators interrupted me, |
| 00:16:36 |
I asked Judge Rouanar: |
| 00:16:40 |
"Your Honor, am I in a court of law |
| 00:16:44 |
"or a murder plot?" |
| 00:16:46 |
We were dealing with idiots. |
| 00:16:49 |
They had a very limited |
| 00:16:54 |
I was just a mercenary and a traitor. |
| 00:16:57 |
My clients and friends |
| 00:17:01 |
as they called them. |
| 00:17:04 |
So they couldn't understand us. |
| 00:17:07 |
But we could understand them, |
| 00:17:10 |
and how their tiny brains worked. |
| 00:17:12 |
So it was easy for me, |
| 00:17:17 |
when I felt the mood |
| 00:17:20 |
to turn around arrogantly, |
| 00:17:22 |
then I'd hear these growls |
| 00:17:26 |
and I'd ask the Judge: |
| 00:17:29 |
"is this a nomal trial |
| 00:17:32 |
Orwhen people shouted |
| 00:17:36 |
"Your Honor, |
| 00:17:39 |
"when their ancestors ate acoms |
| 00:17:42 |
"mine were building palaces." |
| 00:17:47 |
The problem |
| 00:17:51 |
as leftwing lawyers advised us to do, |
| 00:17:55 |
from the murderous fools |
| 00:17:58 |
but to taunt them, |
| 00:18:01 |
that would reach Paris, |
| 00:18:06 |
What's nice about |
| 00:18:10 |
is that Vergès, who told |
| 00:18:13 |
who was outspoken, |
| 00:18:19 |
suddenly... |
| 00:18:22 |
meeting Djamila Bouhired, |
| 00:18:27 |
he broke down sobbing |
| 00:18:31 |
and was deeply upset. |
| 00:18:33 |
I don't know if he fell in love |
| 00:18:37 |
he fell in love with a young woman |
| 00:18:41 |
because she'd just been tortured |
| 00:18:46 |
and she was totally dignified. |
| 00:18:48 |
Djamila now appeared |
| 00:18:55 |
Indeed, at the time of the trial, |
| 00:18:58 |
it was obvious |
| 00:19:00 |
that now the revolution |
| 00:19:05 |
and had Djamila's face, |
| 00:19:07 |
and the revolution had hers. |
| 00:19:16 |
For us, |
| 00:19:19 |
She symbolized the struggle |
| 00:19:22 |
for national liberation in Algiers, |
| 00:19:27 |
and especially for women. |
| 00:19:33 |
She was an example |
| 00:19:36 |
who desperately wanted |
| 00:19:40 |
and take part in armed actions |
| 00:19:44 |
and be present. |
| 00:19:46 |
At the time we noticed something: |
| 00:19:49 |
After her arrest, |
| 00:19:53 |
in many homes |
| 00:19:56 |
they were given the name "Djamila". |
| 00:20:00 |
She favored |
| 00:20:03 |
she didn't want to yield. |
| 00:20:05 |
She had said in court: |
| 00:20:09 |
"but you must know |
| 00:20:13 |
"I'll do it." |
| 00:20:16 |
Which is worse for them than saying: |
| 00:20:19 |
"I placed a bomb and I'm sorry." |
| 00:20:22 |
So he was defending soldiers. |
| 00:20:24 |
Who, from his point of view, |
| 00:20:26 |
were all committed to that war. |
| 00:20:30 |
He wasn't trying to get |
| 00:20:34 |
from a judge, |
| 00:20:37 |
by appealing for mercy |
| 00:20:39 |
You can see why he was furious |
| 00:20:42 |
at lawyers who came |
| 00:20:46 |
That's when was born |
| 00:20:53 |
So that when the judge says: |
| 00:20:56 |
the prisoner says: "I'm Algerian." |
| 00:20:58 |
The judge says: |
| 00:21:01 |
The prisoner says: |
| 00:21:05 |
The judge says: |
| 00:21:08 |
he says: "I executed a traitor." |
| 00:21:11 |
From then on, |
| 00:21:14 |
5 death sentences |
| 00:21:18 |
Violent incidents: |
| 00:21:21 |
Djamila Bouhired and 5 others |
| 00:21:25 |
When Djamila heard |
| 00:21:30 |
What the Judge said |
| 00:21:35 |
"Don't laugh, Miss, it's serious." |
| 00:21:41 |
I found out |
| 00:21:45 |
that the prisoners |
| 00:21:48 |
A lawyer said to me: |
| 00:21:52 |
"Do you care |
| 00:21:59 |
I answered: "More than my own." |
| 00:22:02 |
"Then don't waste another minute. |
| 00:22:05 |
"Mr Lacoste promised us her head." |
| 00:22:08 |
So I told my colleagues: |
| 00:22:11 |
The only way now |
| 00:22:16 |
is to activate French |
| 00:22:20 |
and international public opinion. |
| 00:22:22 |
Djamila is Algeria's Joan of Arc |
| 00:22:25 |
Film made of her life |
| 00:22:27 |
Young socialist goes on hunger strike |
| 00:22:29 |
Jordan wants her pardoned |
| 00:22:31 |
Nehru opposes Algeria executions |
| 00:22:34 |
For Djamila |
| 00:22:38 |
76 British MPs for her pardon |
| 00:22:41 |
Ho Chi Minh asks for her pardon |
| 00:22:43 |
French President urged to spare her |
| 00:22:45 |
Letters, telegrams |
| 00:22:48 |
Pardon for Djamila! |
| 00:22:53 |
Germans ask for her pardon |
| 00:23:37 |
Death row was in this block. |
| 00:23:39 |
This was death row? |
| 00:23:51 |
It was quite plush... |
| 00:23:54 |
Look at this faucet, |
| 00:23:58 |
Those were the toilets. |
| 00:24:00 |
We did our... |
| 00:24:02 |
We washed there and did our... |
| 00:24:07 |
You realize... |
| 00:24:10 |
- Night and day... |
| 00:24:16 |
Hand and foot... |
| 00:24:18 |
Ourfeet were shackled... |
| 00:24:20 |
Those sentenced to death |
| 00:24:23 |
they're militants who raised |
| 00:24:29 |
who transcended the problems |
| 00:24:31 |
and the delicate situations |
| 00:24:34 |
that each of them faced. |
| 00:24:39 |
They were a model |
| 00:24:43 |
who emulated |
| 00:24:45 |
their behavior, |
| 00:24:49 |
on those sentenced to death. |
| 00:24:51 |
When there was a struggle |
| 00:24:56 |
when those sentenced to death |
| 00:24:59 |
it always worked. |
| 00:25:01 |
A strike by inmates on death row |
| 00:25:07 |
There was a great deal of anxiety, |
| 00:25:11 |
and also fear, |
| 00:25:16 |
but we accepted it, |
| 00:25:18 |
because we knew |
| 00:25:23 |
We were convinced we'd done right. |
| 00:25:27 |
Someone sentenced to death |
| 00:25:30 |
knows he has 45 days before him |
| 00:25:32 |
to be pardoned or not |
| 00:25:36 |
by the French President. |
| 00:25:40 |
And once someone on death row |
| 00:25:44 |
hasn't been pardoned, |
| 00:25:49 |
We even prepared the statement |
| 00:25:52 |
we'd make in front of the guillotine. |
| 00:25:56 |
"Long live free Algeria, Inch'Allah!" |
| 00:26:00 |
We couldn't sleep at night. |
| 00:26:02 |
There were 5 of us: |
| 00:26:04 |
Djamila Bouhired, |
| 00:26:08 |
In two cells. So we couldn't sleep. |
| 00:26:10 |
In the morning, |
| 00:26:13 |
we heard the guillotine being set up |
| 00:26:16 |
and wondered: "Will it be us today?" |
| 00:26:25 |
God is great! |
| 00:26:34 |
We heard them |
| 00:26:37 |
They said "Allah Akbar" |
| 00:26:39 |
and we answered "Allah Akbar" |
| 00:26:44 |
and sang a patriotic song, |
| 00:26:48 |
and did our traditional wails, |
| 00:26:49 |
and from the casbah |
| 00:26:53 |
We climbed |
| 00:26:55 |
knowing that the brothers |
| 00:26:59 |
were behind that wall. |
| 00:27:01 |
Then we sang patriotic songs, |
| 00:27:04 |
did our traditional wails... |
| 00:27:12 |
And the whole city |
| 00:27:15 |
woke up at 4 AM |
| 00:27:34 |
The day following an execution |
| 00:27:37 |
was a day of fasting. |
| 00:27:41 |
No coffee in the morning, |
| 00:27:43 |
no soup at noon, |
| 00:27:47 |
It was total silence, |
| 00:27:50 |
and the people were... |
| 00:27:53 |
they were in a state |
| 00:27:56 |
of extraordinary spirituality. |
| 00:27:59 |
I've had clients, friends, |
| 00:28:05 |
Several dozen. |
| 00:28:09 |
- None was executed. |
| 00:28:14 |
I no longer slept. |
| 00:28:18 |
If any of them had been killed, |
| 00:28:33 |
The writer GeorgesArnaud |
| 00:28:35 |
"What if she's executed?" |
| 00:28:39 |
I said: "I'll shoot someone." |
| 00:28:41 |
I can get an appointment |
| 00:28:45 |
and I'll shoot him. |
| 00:28:49 |
Then I'll be at peace with myself. |
| 00:28:53 |
Luckily, Almighty God didn't want it. |
| 00:28:57 |
Djamila Bouhired |
| 00:29:00 |
Their sentences commuted |
| 00:29:05 |
I'd lived in a colonized country, |
| 00:29:08 |
son of a Réunion Island father |
| 00:29:11 |
and a Vietnamese mother. |
| 00:29:13 |
My childhood memories |
| 00:29:16 |
where colored people |
| 00:29:19 |
to let the Europeans go by. |
| 00:29:22 |
It was a sight, |
| 00:29:25 |
an unacceptable feeling |
| 00:29:28 |
to young kids like us. |
| 00:29:30 |
I think he was born at war, |
| 00:29:34 |
born angry, |
| 00:29:37 |
born colonized. |
| 00:29:39 |
Once you've been colonized, |
| 00:29:42 |
the only attitude |
| 00:29:46 |
is to be against things. |
| 00:29:48 |
You can't go along with them, |
| 00:29:52 |
So you're against things. |
| 00:29:56 |
I think he became a lawyer |
| 00:30:00 |
It was the only place |
| 00:30:05 |
If you took up ams, |
| 00:30:09 |
Being an angry lawyer, |
| 00:30:12 |
you have the best venue there is. |
| 00:30:15 |
Better than joumalism, |
| 00:30:20 |
All eyes are focused on |
| 00:30:24 |
one a judge, the other a "terrorist", |
| 00:30:27 |
in quotation marks, |
| 00:30:29 |
and the trial |
| 00:30:33 |
as no one can stop you |
| 00:30:40 |
After World War II, colonial |
| 00:30:44 |
and new ones were formed. |
| 00:30:47 |
Like that of the Khmer students, |
| 00:30:50 |
headed by a certain Saloth Sar |
| 00:30:53 |
who later became Oomrade Pol Pot, |
| 00:30:58 |
those groups were fomed then. |
| 00:31:01 |
Like the Union of Algerian |
| 00:31:05 |
These groups, like the Réunion |
| 00:31:09 |
had liaison committees, |
| 00:31:11 |
our paperwas called |
| 00:31:14 |
and we constantly organized |
| 00:31:19 |
in the Latin Quarter. |
| 00:31:22 |
When I tumed 29, |
| 00:31:23 |
it was time to quit |
| 00:31:26 |
I'd done 2 years of Law, |
| 00:31:29 |
pass my exams, and be lawyer. |
| 00:31:32 |
It's not an odious profession, |
| 00:31:35 |
that's all one can say. |
| 00:31:39 |
On my first case |
| 00:31:42 |
as I sat facing |
| 00:31:49 |
I said to myself: "That guy is me." |
| 00:31:52 |
"I could've done what he did, |
| 00:31:55 |
"if I'd been in his shoes." |
| 00:32:00 |
Then I knew it was my calling. |
| 00:32:07 |
Lawyers were remarkable |
| 00:32:11 |
We had no telephones |
| 00:32:13 |
from one jail to another. |
| 00:32:15 |
How did everyone, overnight, |
| 00:32:20 |
Lawyers were very important links. |
| 00:32:23 |
That's how I met Jacques Vergès |
| 00:32:28 |
and kept on seeing him. |
| 00:32:30 |
In jail he was my lawyer, |
| 00:32:34 |
Here's a story... |
| 00:32:36 |
We were 1,200 inmates |
| 00:32:40 |
200 could read and write, |
| 00:32:47 |
After the hunger strikes, |
| 00:32:50 |
to teach courses. |
| 00:32:53 |
Ayear later, |
| 00:32:58 |
and in 2 languages, |
| 00:33:00 |
We even gave music courses. |
| 00:33:02 |
We had LPs... |
| 00:33:07 |
That's revolutionary, too. |
| 00:33:09 |
Because a revolution isn't a beast |
| 00:33:16 |
that devours its best children, |
| 00:34:10 |
Bomb blast at Corniche casino |
| 00:34:23 |
I cried one day |
| 00:34:25 |
after the bomb blast at La Oorniche, |
| 00:34:28 |
because I'd sworn |
| 00:34:33 |
to stop planting bombs. |
| 00:34:35 |
Enough of that! |
| 00:34:38 |
Why? |
| 00:34:41 |
The deaths I didn't mind, |
| 00:34:43 |
we all have to die. |
| 00:34:45 |
But people losing |
| 00:34:49 |
that makes me sick. |
| 00:34:52 |
So I said, no more bombs. |
| 00:34:57 |
Enough of that! |
| 00:34:59 |
And I fell back into it... |
| 00:35:01 |
Once they start executing, |
| 00:35:04 |
I go back to doing it. |
| 00:35:09 |
The real question to me is, |
| 00:35:11 |
who does one do it for? |
| 00:35:16 |
The difference between |
| 00:35:23 |
that carried out bomb attacks, |
| 00:35:28 |
like some local groups, |
| 00:35:30 |
is that Algerians |
| 00:35:34 |
The French weren't for theirs. |
| 00:35:37 |
Algerian public opinion |
| 00:35:53 |
Once the battle of Algiers started, |
| 00:35:56 |
all the Algerian lawyers |
| 00:36:00 |
Which meant we had a huge task. |
| 00:36:05 |
The P.M., Michel Debré, said: |
| 00:36:07 |
"These lawyers harm us more |
| 00:36:11 |
It's true: Morally, the use of torture |
| 00:36:16 |
French soldiers aren't torturers! |
| 00:36:19 |
In every trial, |
| 00:36:22 |
humanists reproached us for that. |
| 00:36:28 |
Every case involved torture. |
| 00:36:30 |
In every case that came up, |
| 00:36:32 |
the Algerian people |
| 00:36:36 |
Hence the murder of one of us, |
| 00:36:44 |
We were told to kill them, |
| 00:36:51 |
You say you were told. |
| 00:36:52 |
Who told you? |
| 00:36:54 |
Mr Debré, the Prime Minister. |
| 00:37:02 |
The order was given to shoot |
| 00:37:06 |
the four lawyers: |
| 00:37:08 |
Ben Abdallah, Oussedik, |
| 00:37:11 |
Ould Aoudia and me. |
| 00:37:12 |
We got a letter, |
| 00:37:16 |
that said: "You too", |
| 00:37:19 |
and below |
| 00:37:22 |
It was very clear. |
| 00:37:24 |
Vergès was N° 2, |
| 00:37:29 |
He'd sleep at my home, |
| 00:37:34 |
I had a lot of novelty items: |
| 00:37:37 |
He loved to take my water-pistol, |
| 00:37:41 |
we'd go out in my car, |
| 00:37:46 |
and as soon as he spotted someone |
| 00:37:50 |
he'd fire a jet of water |
| 00:37:54 |
He had such joie de vivre... |
| 00:37:57 |
Probably, to relax |
| 00:38:01 |
because he really took risks |
| 00:38:04 |
He insulted the judges, |
| 00:38:07 |
sang the Kassamen, |
| 00:38:11 |
with the patriots who were on trial, |
| 00:38:15 |
he waved FLN flags |
| 00:38:19 |
I mean it was really... |
| 00:38:21 |
He could have been arrested |
| 00:38:42 |
Once Algeria became independent, |
| 00:38:44 |
I founded a newspaper |
| 00:38:47 |
called "African Revolution". |
| 00:38:57 |
He put out a call |
| 00:39:00 |
so I and others went over there, |
| 00:39:05 |
But I didn't have the freedom |
| 00:39:07 |
Algeria became a drag, |
| 00:39:13 |
I couldn't talk |
| 00:39:17 |
about girls, or booze... |
| 00:39:21 |
Ben Bella who ran things there |
| 00:39:26 |
"Don't print that drawing" |
| 00:39:28 |
or "You'll shock |
| 00:39:32 |
I said: "I've had it" and I quit. |
| 00:39:43 |
"African Revolution" |
| 00:39:46 |
Chinese Spring", |
| 00:40:00 |
I realized it was a big moment, |
| 00:40:20 |
You sense that the Ohinese |
| 00:40:22 |
don't agree with the Russians |
| 00:40:27 |
They're more committed |
| 00:40:33 |
On that point, I side with them. |
| 00:40:36 |
Very soon I got to meet |
| 00:40:42 |
I filled him in about the activities |
| 00:40:44 |
of pro-Ohinese groups in Africa. |
| 00:40:49 |
He listened very attentively, |
| 00:40:52 |
maybe out of courtesy. |
| 00:40:54 |
As we were leaving, he asked me, |
| 00:41:00 |
indicating Djamila: |
| 00:41:04 |
I was very surprised by the question, |
| 00:41:07 |
and said: "We're thinking of it." |
| 00:41:10 |
If anything |
| 00:41:13 |
we tactfully hid it |
| 00:41:16 |
until she was freed. |
| 00:41:18 |
In Barberousse, |
| 00:41:22 |
In the women's wing |
| 00:41:26 |
in summer, |
| 00:41:28 |
sometimes we met our clients |
| 00:41:34 |
Then the prisoners |
| 00:41:38 |
first to Pau prison, |
| 00:41:40 |
then to Rennes. |
| 00:41:43 |
I always went to visit her, |
| 00:41:46 |
except that... |
| 00:41:50 |
in early 1961, |
| 00:41:53 |
I was suspended for a year. |
| 00:41:55 |
They tried to get rid of us |
| 00:41:58 |
so I used this 1-year ban |
| 00:42:01 |
where I counseled the government |
| 00:42:06 |
And when Djamila was freed, |
| 00:42:10 |
went back to Algeria via Morocco. |
| 00:42:15 |
That's where you got married? |
| 00:42:17 |
No. |
| 00:42:20 |
Jacques is sentimental, |
| 00:42:24 |
He's desperately sentimental. |
| 00:42:31 |
I promise you that, |
| 00:42:36 |
Jacques, is really sentimental. |
| 00:42:38 |
I'd gone to visit Djamila, |
| 00:42:42 |
her mother didn't approve |
| 00:42:51 |
I always said, Jacques: |
| 00:42:54 |
"You'll have to be circumcised, |
| 00:42:58 |
"and you'll have to give up pork!" |
| 00:43:00 |
I reminded him of all the pork |
| 00:43:05 |
he adored vintage Bordeaux, |
| 00:43:08 |
now suddenly he only drank water, |
| 00:43:11 |
he set his alam at 5.30 AM. |
| 00:43:13 |
And ate dates before breakfast. |
| 00:43:16 |
We had rows, amicable ones. |
| 00:43:21 |
I said: "You've really |
| 00:43:24 |
Some say, but I don't think it's true, |
| 00:43:28 |
that Ben Bella |
| 00:43:31 |
not because of her beauty... |
| 00:43:34 |
Yes. |
| 00:43:35 |
- Is she still as pretty? |
| 00:43:37 |
She's a superb woman. |
| 00:43:39 |
But she was also a national heroine, |
| 00:43:42 |
and Ben Bella... was ambitious. |
| 00:43:45 |
I don't think Vergès |
| 00:43:49 |
To him, |
| 00:43:55 |
He wanted to steer it closer |
| 00:44:00 |
The ideas in "African Revolution" |
| 00:44:03 |
with those of President Ben Bella |
| 00:44:08 |
and I was soon |
| 00:44:14 |
Then, I opened my law office. |
| 00:44:18 |
It soon had a political slant |
| 00:44:22 |
"Our Palestinian friends |
| 00:44:25 |
"to go defend a Palestinian |
| 00:44:29 |
"in the occupied territories, |
| 00:44:32 |
"in Israel. |
| 00:44:34 |
"I thought of you |
| 00:44:38 |
So I went to Israel then |
| 00:44:42 |
in 1965, |
| 00:44:45 |
just after my marriage. |
| 00:44:48 |
A Palestinian |
| 00:44:50 |
is yesterday'sAlgerian. |
| 00:44:54 |
To us Israel |
| 00:44:57 |
is basically a colonial phenomenon. |
| 00:45:01 |
I flew to Israel, |
| 00:45:06 |
by the Police Ohief who said: |
| 00:45:08 |
"You're persona non grata. |
| 00:45:10 |
"You'll spend the night here |
| 00:45:14 |
They put me in a small room, |
| 00:45:16 |
it was on the first floor, |
| 00:45:19 |
suddenly the window opened |
| 00:45:21 |
and a reporter said: |
| 00:45:27 |
I'm a perfectionist, |
| 00:45:30 |
I had a written statement, |
| 00:45:34 |
I threw it to him, |
| 00:45:37 |
The next morning, I flew to Zürich. |
| 00:45:41 |
The airline stewardesses |
| 00:45:46 |
because the "Jerusalem Post" |
| 00:45:47 |
told of my misadventures. |
| 00:45:50 |
It had published |
| 00:45:53 |
a photocopy of my declaration: |
| 00:45:55 |
"You have no right to judge me. |
| 00:46:00 |
And I knew |
| 00:46:02 |
that my client would read |
| 00:46:06 |
that newspaper |
| 00:46:08 |
and would know |
| 00:46:12 |
He was sentenced, |
| 00:46:15 |
I don't know where he is now. |
| 00:46:19 |
Then, I was appointed |
| 00:46:22 |
to defend the Palestinians |
| 00:46:27 |
for attacking an El Al plane. |
| 00:46:36 |
First, my friend shot |
| 00:46:48 |
El Al jet machine-gunned |
| 00:46:53 |
Some 40 Greek children |
| 00:46:57 |
got into the airplane. |
| 00:47:00 |
So that's why |
| 00:47:04 |
We only killed one Major-General. |
| 00:47:06 |
The PFLPclaims responsibility |
| 00:47:34 |
I'd gone to Athens, |
| 00:47:37 |
we'd been hired to defend them. |
| 00:47:40 |
We met them at the jail, |
| 00:47:42 |
we met the magistrates, |
| 00:47:45 |
but we didn't get to plead, |
| 00:47:47 |
it was settled... politically. |
| 00:47:59 |
They made a deal |
| 00:48:22 |
Then we went to Zürich. |
| 00:48:25 |
Zürich was similar: |
| 00:48:26 |
An El Al plane |
| 00:48:30 |
This time, we got to plead. |
| 00:48:32 |
It was the famous trial |
| 00:48:35 |
where we adopted Jacques Vergès' |
| 00:48:39 |
We refused to be part of the trial. |
| 00:48:54 |
I think that's what saved him, |
| 00:48:56 |
he felt grateful |
| 00:49:00 |
for sending him |
| 00:49:04 |
and he published a book, |
| 00:49:05 |
"For The Fedayeens" at that time. |
| 00:49:09 |
But it was the only thing |
| 00:49:12 |
that stimulated him intellectually. |
| 00:49:14 |
He'd returned to Algeria, |
| 00:49:19 |
and instead of being |
| 00:49:24 |
he'd become |
| 00:49:28 |
That's all Algeria gave him. |
| 00:49:31 |
It had let him be |
| 00:49:38 |
She wasn't Jacques Vergès' wife, |
| 00:49:40 |
he was the husband of |
| 00:49:43 |
who's as famous there, |
| 00:49:46 |
He'd become a Muslim |
| 00:49:49 |
and I think he was bored. |
| 00:49:51 |
Those were terrible years for him. |
| 00:49:54 |
He left to be done with it. |
| 00:49:58 |
My last client... |
| 00:50:01 |
was the son of a fisherman |
| 00:50:05 |
from Dellys, a small Algerian port. |
| 00:50:09 |
Or really his father: |
| 00:50:14 |
and I sued the insurance company. |
| 00:50:17 |
Everybody was intrigued |
| 00:50:21 |
His ex-wife, |
| 00:50:24 |
had no news either. |
| 00:50:26 |
FLN lawyer |
| 00:50:29 |
He was last seen |
| 00:50:32 |
at an anti-colonial rally in Paris. |
| 00:50:36 |
He made a speech |
| 00:50:39 |
and vanished. |
| 00:50:41 |
After 3 months, |
| 00:50:43 |
Djamila Bouhired and his friends, |
| 00:50:47 |
They put an ad in the papers, |
| 00:50:49 |
asking if anyone had seen him. |
| 00:50:53 |
They were very worried. |
| 00:50:56 |
A new Ben Barka affair? |
| 00:51:01 |
When you... |
| 00:51:03 |
go underground, |
| 00:51:08 |
of course you have to cut all ties. |
| 00:51:15 |
Especially with people |
| 00:51:19 |
When I went on "long vacation", |
| 00:51:21 |
a pipe is very recognizable. |
| 00:51:25 |
To pass unnoticed, |
| 00:51:29 |
I threw my pipe away. |
| 00:51:30 |
I removed the labels |
| 00:51:35 |
I destroyed lots of documents, |
| 00:51:42 |
I heard what everyone said, |
| 00:52:36 |
The Brilliant Bastard |
| 00:52:39 |
In that book |
| 00:52:44 |
It says... |
| 00:52:49 |
that Jacques Vergès |
| 00:52:56 |
I remember that Pol Pot |
| 00:53:00 |
Most people say he was in Cambodia |
| 00:53:03 |
If Jacques Vergès |
| 00:53:07 |
Pol Pot would have known. |
| 00:53:10 |
He couldn't have not known it. |
| 00:54:05 |
They say there are some things |
| 00:54:12 |
It's true, only I know. |
| 00:54:17 |
After Pol Pot, only I know. |
| 00:54:25 |
He was General-Secretary, |
| 00:54:28 |
But some things only I knew. |
| 00:54:32 |
Pol Pot said: "We rule together, |
| 00:55:13 |
When he vanished from 1970-1978, |
| 00:55:18 |
He did something |
| 00:55:21 |
and was a cure |
| 00:55:23 |
forwhat he could no longer stand. |
| 00:55:26 |
He rethought the world, |
| 00:55:28 |
but he did his revolution all alone. |
| 00:55:32 |
His strength is to have never turned |
| 00:55:40 |
I was drawn |
| 00:55:44 |
It was in May 1973, |
| 00:55:48 |
and a very tense period. |
| 00:55:58 |
We were several politicians, |
| 00:56:02 |
of different tendencies. |
| 00:56:04 |
that the ambassador |
| 00:56:08 |
and the head of the National Group, |
| 00:56:14 |
We all were meeting |
| 00:56:16 |
at Arafat's HQ. |
| 00:56:19 |
Suddenly, there was a battle, |
| 00:56:25 |
between the Lebanese army |
| 00:56:29 |
So we were surrounded |
| 00:56:33 |
And we stayed there |
| 00:56:37 |
from 5 PM |
| 00:56:41 |
till 2 AM or 3 AM, |
| 00:56:44 |
almost for 7 to 8 hours. |
| 00:56:47 |
I was sitting |
| 00:56:49 |
in Arafat's office. |
| 00:56:52 |
He was calling people, |
| 00:56:57 |
and also talking to the Arab leaders, |
| 00:57:01 |
trying to stop what was going on. |
| 00:57:06 |
When he calmed down, |
| 00:57:12 |
his security chief Abou Hassan... |
| 00:57:21 |
Arafat suddenly looked at him |
| 00:57:27 |
"Who is this Vergès? What is he?" |
| 00:57:30 |
Abou Hassan Salameh |
| 00:57:33 |
"He's an important lawyer |
| 00:57:38 |
Arafat smiled and said: |
| 00:57:43 |
Vergès has the extra merit |
| 00:57:47 |
of being committed, |
| 00:57:55 |
My codename was "Pascal". |
| 00:57:59 |
- And Vergès? |
| 00:58:07 |
Remember crossing a lake with him? |
| 00:58:10 |
I crossed lakes several times. |
| 00:58:12 |
- With him? |
| 00:58:15 |
"I first crossed the lake with Bachir, |
| 00:58:27 |
I was in a lot of countries |
| 00:58:29 |
but what mattered to me |
| 00:58:34 |
Egypt, |
| 00:58:36 |
Iraq, |
| 00:58:38 |
Syria, Lebanon. |
| 00:58:41 |
During this period of exile, |
| 00:58:45 |
always along the same lines, |
| 00:58:50 |
to do with liberation movements, |
| 00:58:56 |
Including |
| 00:59:01 |
especially that. |
| 00:59:36 |
There were several radical |
| 00:59:40 |
and he may have been there |
| 00:59:45 |
In that era, |
| 00:59:47 |
when many believed |
| 00:59:50 |
that what would happen in Palestine |
| 00:59:55 |
was the spark that would set fire |
| 01:00:13 |
2 people headed this organization, |
| 01:00:15 |
Georges Habbache |
| 01:00:19 |
They're both physicians... |
| 01:00:24 |
and both of them are from |
| 01:00:27 |
and are Marxists. |
| 01:00:28 |
Haddad and Habbache |
| 01:00:32 |
Haddad had a brilliant idea. |
| 01:00:37 |
This was in the late 1960s, |
| 01:00:40 |
In Europe and all over the world, |
| 01:00:43 |
there were student demonstrations |
| 01:00:47 |
Many new |
| 01:00:50 |
were born of this unrest, |
| 01:00:52 |
or saw their ranks swell enormously, |
| 01:00:55 |
and many of them |
| 01:00:58 |
Waddi Haddad |
| 01:01:02 |
that if they could enlist terrorists |
| 01:01:07 |
it would multiply |
| 01:01:08 |
their capacity for action. |
| 01:01:22 |
He was the boss, |
| 01:01:30 |
It was very easy to enter... |
| 01:01:34 |
Somalia, or Mogadishu, |
| 01:01:36 |
to get into Yemen, orAden, |
| 01:01:39 |
at the time there were 2 Yemens, |
| 01:01:41 |
and I mean South Yemen. |
| 01:01:43 |
It was easy to get into Iraq, |
| 01:01:47 |
all you needed to get in |
| 01:01:51 |
But to get out you needed |
| 01:02:36 |
Vergès could |
| 01:02:40 |
At one point |
| 01:02:45 |
and his anger against the Jews |
| 01:02:49 |
could have made a terrorist of him. |
| 01:02:52 |
But he couldn't be the kind of fighter |
| 01:02:55 |
who sleeps in cellars |
| 01:02:59 |
He's too fond of the good life. |
| 01:03:01 |
He likes fine cuisine, |
| 01:03:06 |
and reading books, |
| 01:03:09 |
I don't see him as a karate man. |
| 01:03:14 |
But pressing a button |
| 01:03:17 |
if that's all it takes, |
| 01:03:21 |
I wasn't on the moon. |
| 01:03:24 |
I was among people. |
| 01:03:26 |
Who are as discreet as I am. |
| 01:03:29 |
Maybe for serious reasons. |
| 01:03:32 |
That's why I can't talk about them. |
| 01:03:36 |
It's all very simple. |
| 01:03:39 |
I met Vergès |
| 01:03:46 |
I met a lot |
| 01:03:48 |
of François Genoud's friends: |
| 01:03:51 |
Germans, who came to his home. |
| 01:03:54 |
It was always on Thursdays, |
| 01:03:56 |
from 3 PM to 7 PM, |
| 01:04:00 |
we drank tea or coffee |
| 01:04:05 |
François Genoud is a Swiss Nazi, |
| 01:04:07 |
not a neo-Nazi: |
| 01:04:10 |
an early fan |
| 01:04:14 |
He also managed |
| 01:04:16 |
the book-royalties of Nazi leaders. |
| 01:04:20 |
Genoud also financed |
| 01:04:24 |
via financial deals |
| 01:04:25 |
that went through a bank he set up |
| 01:04:28 |
in Switzerland. |
| 01:04:31 |
There were close relationships |
| 01:04:35 |
and some revolutionary |
| 01:04:40 |
in the Middle East. |
| 01:04:41 |
Like Husseini... |
| 01:04:46 |
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, |
| 01:04:48 |
who wanted a Holy War |
| 01:04:51 |
and was financed by the Gemans |
| 01:04:53 |
to make trouble |
| 01:04:56 |
Palestine was then |
| 01:04:59 |
The fact is, |
| 01:05:07 |
in an explosive Middle East. |
| 01:05:10 |
So he was influenced by all that... |
| 01:05:16 |
But regarding François Genoud, |
| 01:05:17 |
many people try to link him |
| 01:05:25 |
Because of our relationship... |
| 01:05:26 |
we agreed on certain things... |
| 01:05:33 |
To me, |
| 01:05:38 |
As to the notorious François Genoud, |
| 01:05:40 |
they met during the Algerian war, |
| 01:05:43 |
at the start of independence, |
| 01:05:47 |
when both were close to Ben Bella. |
| 01:05:50 |
They met for the first time |
| 01:05:54 |
over the case of the Palestinians |
| 01:05:57 |
who had hijacked an El Al plane. |
| 01:05:59 |
Genoud was everywhere and nowhere. |
| 01:06:02 |
He was in contact with the families |
| 01:06:06 |
of the men imprisoned |
| 01:06:10 |
in contact with Vergès, |
| 01:06:14 |
In contact |
| 01:06:18 |
Everyone knows |
| 01:06:21 |
with the top Palestinian leader. |
| 01:06:30 |
François was a worthy man |
| 01:06:34 |
who took part in the discussions |
| 01:06:37 |
and I'm sure gave |
| 00:00:13 |
on an operational level |
| 00:00:21 |
Which is why |
| 00:00:24 |
Sheik means "chief" or "elder". |
| 00:00:31 |
François Genoud |
| 00:00:34 |
had a very close |
| 00:00:41 |
We liked him a lot. |
| 00:00:47 |
I know that they were close, |
| 00:00:50 |
Vergès, Boumaza and Genoud. |
| 00:00:57 |
All during the struggle, |
| 00:01:02 |
and active in Palestinian affairs, |
| 00:01:05 |
but that's all I can tell you. |
| 00:01:13 |
With Waddi Haddad? |
| 00:01:15 |
Yes... |
| 00:01:17 |
He was the brains, the thinker. |
| 00:01:21 |
Everybody admired |
| 00:01:28 |
We tried, for example, |
| 00:01:32 |
to unite the Palestinian movement. |
| 00:01:36 |
To tell them of the mistakes we made, |
| 00:01:39 |
Messali Hadj and the FLN |
| 00:01:41 |
how they'll try to divide you, |
| 00:01:46 |
We even gave lectures... |
| 00:01:49 |
If you read the newspapers... |
| 00:01:53 |
One of my collaborators... |
| 00:01:57 |
was Mohammed Boudia, |
| 00:01:59 |
killed by the Israeli secret service |
| 00:02:04 |
blown up by a bomb. |
| 00:02:11 |
He was part of our group |
| 00:02:14 |
the RUR, that fostered |
| 00:02:18 |
I'd lost sight of Boudia: |
| 00:02:20 |
Now he was |
| 00:02:30 |
One evening, I was in Paris, |
| 00:02:35 |
I remember it very clearly, |
| 00:02:37 |
it was on Rue Tronchet, |
| 00:02:42 |
There's a café |
| 00:02:46 |
Walking by, |
| 00:02:48 |
I saw Boudia, |
| 00:02:52 |
at a table. |
| 00:02:53 |
I came in to shake his hand, |
| 00:02:56 |
and I said: "You're here?" |
| 00:03:04 |
We never discussed future actions... |
| 00:03:08 |
In those days, everyone was sure |
| 00:03:13 |
But I ran into Jiri Pelikan |
| 00:03:15 |
who'd known him |
| 00:03:19 |
and who was head |
| 00:03:26 |
He said, and it came as a shock: |
| 00:03:31 |
"During those 8 years, |
| 00:03:36 |
I said: "It's impossible. |
| 00:03:40 |
He said: "He hasn't." |
| 00:03:43 |
And I see Jacques cross the street. |
| 00:03:46 |
I went up to him, |
| 00:03:49 |
took him by the shoulder |
| 00:03:54 |
Vergès answered: |
| 00:03:56 |
"Hush! I'm not here. |
| 00:04:00 |
One day a guy called Pelikan, |
| 00:04:07 |
who was a good friend of his, |
| 00:04:10 |
where I was dining |
| 00:04:14 |
"I just saw Vergès, |
| 00:04:17 |
Karine said: "What's this?" |
| 00:04:21 |
He'd already been gone 3 years. |
| 00:04:24 |
"I just saw him!" |
| 00:04:28 |
I said: "It can't be, you're crazy!" |
| 00:04:30 |
I'm in Paris, in a little hotel, |
| 00:04:35 |
under an assumed name. |
| 00:04:38 |
It's a Monday, |
| 00:04:42 |
all the stores are closed, |
| 00:04:46 |
to buy country bread... |
| 00:04:49 |
and cheese... |
| 00:04:52 |
When I leave, I see standing in line, |
| 00:04:55 |
a colleague's widow, |
| 00:04:58 |
who stares at me. |
| 00:05:00 |
I say to myself: |
| 00:05:04 |
"She'll tell everyone |
| 00:05:07 |
"How can I stop her?" |
| 00:05:08 |
Sometimes the brain works |
| 00:05:12 |
I don't know how I got the idea, |
| 00:05:15 |
"Hi, Fatso! |
| 00:05:18 |
"How's tricks?" |
| 00:05:19 |
She went: "Ohhhh!" |
| 00:05:21 |
And I walked off. |
| 00:05:22 |
I figured she'd tell that story, |
| 00:05:24 |
all she'd get right is: |
| 00:05:28 |
No one'll believe her. |
| 00:05:30 |
They'll say: "Since her husband died, |
| 00:05:39 |
What interested me a lot |
| 00:05:41 |
was meeting another lawyer, |
| 00:05:44 |
who was very close |
| 00:05:49 |
and who told me |
| 00:05:53 |
that several times during those years, |
| 00:05:55 |
Vergès visited him in Paris, |
| 00:05:58 |
still incognito, |
| 00:06:00 |
and slept there. |
| 00:06:04 |
So for Oain, |
| 00:06:09 |
he knew |
| 00:06:12 |
that he worked, hadn't disappeared, |
| 00:06:16 |
So what Oain told me, |
| 00:06:21 |
was that Jacques Vergès had, |
| 00:06:24 |
in the last years |
| 00:06:26 |
1977 and 1978, |
| 00:06:28 |
made many trips on airlines |
| 00:06:32 |
One company claimed |
| 00:06:36 |
The last time |
| 00:06:39 |
that Vergès came back |
| 00:06:42 |
he had a suitcase |
| 00:06:47 |
and said to Oain: |
| 00:06:51 |
Seems he had more money |
| 00:06:55 |
Oain asked him who it came from, |
| 00:06:59 |
he answered: |
| 00:07:02 |
He also repaid Jérôme Lindon |
| 00:07:07 |
with a suitcase full of money and said: |
| 00:07:17 |
Yet Moise Tshombé is the presumed |
| 00:07:21 |
of whom Jacques Vergès |
| 00:07:25 |
So defending Tshombé for him, |
| 00:07:28 |
though it tamished his ideals a bit, |
| 00:07:30 |
was a way to make money. |
| 00:07:34 |
I soon knew, after my little inquiry, |
| 00:07:37 |
among those he saw at the time, |
| 00:07:39 |
that he got money |
| 00:07:43 |
to get him out of jail. |
| 00:07:46 |
He also got a loan |
| 00:07:50 |
of a hundred million francs |
| 00:07:54 |
The deal with Tshombé's family was, |
| 00:07:57 |
according to Vergès, |
| 00:07:59 |
"If I get yourfather out of jail, |
| 00:08:03 |
"you repay this loan. |
| 00:08:05 |
"If I don't, then I have to repay it." |
| 00:08:09 |
But Moise Tshombé |
| 00:08:14 |
He didn't get him out of jail. |
| 00:08:16 |
So Vergès will have to repay it. |
| 00:08:20 |
He has to repay that sum. |
| 00:08:25 |
So the Tshombé family |
| 00:08:27 |
because they guaranteed the loan |
| 00:08:31 |
which still hadn't been repaid |
| 00:08:35 |
I went to Algiers, |
| 00:08:37 |
and met one of the heads |
| 00:08:41 |
Jacques Vergès |
| 00:08:44 |
He didn't leave for a cause, |
| 00:08:47 |
I don't know why, and don't want to. |
| 00:08:50 |
- Not for political reasons? |
| 00:08:54 |
I'm sure of that. |
| 00:08:58 |
I think Vergès was a secret agent. |
| 00:09:01 |
Some said he worked |
| 00:09:06 |
Maybe he was also |
| 00:09:09 |
Which is why he had no problem |
| 00:09:14 |
If Vergès was dead, we could talk. |
| 00:09:17 |
Someone who knew, could talk. |
| 00:09:24 |
Later they may tell historians: |
| 00:09:30 |
Whereas now... |
| 00:09:33 |
this person might fear |
| 00:09:34 |
that Vergès would sue. |
| 00:09:39 |
If that was the case... |
| 00:09:48 |
I got back thin, with a tanned |
| 00:09:55 |
With a more distant perspective |
| 00:10:00 |
Once he got back, |
| 00:10:01 |
it was like he'd lost faith |
| 00:10:06 |
He expected nothing from politics. |
| 00:10:11 |
So he settled in France, |
| 00:10:14 |
and a multi-purpose lawyer, |
| 00:10:43 |
When Jacques saw me: |
| 00:10:45 |
"Hi, Bob! How are things? |
| 00:10:49 |
as if we'd last met a week ago. |
| 00:10:52 |
I invited him for the weekend: |
| 00:10:55 |
I lived 25 miles from Paris then, |
| 00:11:02 |
He came, |
| 00:11:04 |
She knew him well, |
| 00:11:08 |
My mother said to him: |
| 00:11:11 |
She spoke out, |
| 00:11:14 |
She said: "It's insane! |
| 00:11:17 |
"You dumped yourwife and kids. |
| 00:11:20 |
"You're a real scoundrel!" |
| 00:11:22 |
Jacques was laughing: |
| 00:11:24 |
"Don't worry. |
| 00:11:28 |
"You liar!" |
| 00:11:32 |
That's when he said... |
| 00:11:33 |
I asked: "How did Djamila react?" |
| 00:11:37 |
I'd heard she said: |
| 00:11:39 |
"If I ever see Jacques again, |
| 00:11:42 |
He said: "I haven't been |
| 00:12:24 |
So I got back broke. |
| 00:12:28 |
Then I was hired |
| 00:12:30 |
by young German women |
| 00:12:35 |
who'd been arrested in France. |
| 00:12:38 |
And then by Oarlos' friends. |
| 00:12:42 |
So that's it. |
| 00:12:44 |
Between "Action Directe", |
| 00:12:47 |
we were constantly at work, |
| 00:12:52 |
defending victims of police brutality, |
| 00:12:56 |
it was a lot of fun. |
| 00:12:59 |
We had lots of work |
| 00:13:02 |
and I got along fine with Vergès. |
| 00:13:19 |
I went to Stammheim Prison |
| 00:13:21 |
and as luck had it, |
| 00:13:25 |
he was told he was free. |
| 00:13:31 |
We created, |
| 00:13:32 |
Jacques Vergès, |
| 00:13:35 |
the "Intemational Association |
| 00:13:43 |
But Klaus Oroissant |
| 00:13:47 |
So Klaus Oroissant quit. |
| 00:13:50 |
He was very active |
| 00:13:53 |
to create that outfit. |
| 00:13:58 |
When he was freed he came to Paris, |
| 00:14:00 |
then went back to East Germany. |
| 00:14:02 |
You neverworked together? |
| 00:14:04 |
No. |
| 00:14:10 |
I was Oroissant's bodyguard. |
| 00:14:12 |
So I was with him day and night, |
| 00:14:15 |
I saw everything |
| 00:14:17 |
Oroissant's office was used |
| 00:14:21 |
to recruit new members |
| 00:14:25 |
The story of Oroissant's office, |
| 00:14:29 |
all the young people who came to it |
| 00:14:36 |
later became hardliners. |
| 00:14:38 |
They all came via Oroissant. |
| 00:14:42 |
All the jailbreak plans |
| 00:14:45 |
were hatched in the cells |
| 00:14:48 |
on the 7th floor of Stannheim Prison. |
| 00:14:52 |
To get the ideas out, |
| 00:14:56 |
and they did it. |
| 00:14:58 |
The weapons |
| 00:14:59 |
were smuggled into the jails |
| 00:15:05 |
Later with Sartre, I was the driver. |
| 00:15:15 |
I'm for violence as a political weapon |
| 00:15:19 |
where it is needed, |
| 00:15:21 |
meaning where |
| 00:15:26 |
orwhere they can be fostered. |
| 00:15:44 |
Officially among leftists, |
| 00:15:48 |
but that's crap. |
| 00:15:50 |
The top dogs |
| 00:15:53 |
then came |
| 00:16:00 |
I knew she was Weinrich's girlfriend. |
| 00:16:10 |
Haddad and Oarlos planned |
| 00:16:17 |
He was a very rich guy, |
| 00:16:19 |
we wanted a ransom |
| 00:16:22 |
We were there for a month... |
| 00:16:50 |
The boss wasn't Oarlos, |
| 00:16:54 |
Oarlos killed him later in Paris. |
| 00:16:59 |
Apolice Lt and two detectives |
| 00:17:02 |
go to Oarlos's house in Paris. |
| 00:17:04 |
Oarlos opens the door, |
| 00:17:06 |
three Frenchmen with Moukarbel. |
| 00:17:09 |
Pretending to get his papers, |
| 00:17:14 |
fires, kills the 2 detectives, |
| 00:17:18 |
and "executes", |
| 00:17:21 |
Anyway, Oarlos... |
| 00:17:27 |
He's not normal. |
| 00:17:34 |
He's a psychopath. |
| 00:17:45 |
Oarlos came into the boardroom |
| 00:17:48 |
and he was like a kid, |
| 00:17:50 |
he fired at the ceiling and yelled: |
| 00:17:54 |
"I'm Oarlos, |
| 00:17:56 |
But the operation got fouled up |
| 00:18:04 |
They started to shoot at once, |
| 00:18:05 |
and it turned into a gunfight, |
| 00:18:08 |
and they killed some policemen. |
| 00:18:14 |
In the gunfight, |
| 00:18:14 |
H.J. Klein got a bullet |
| 00:18:22 |
By the time they got me to Algeria, |
| 00:18:26 |
I was seriously wounded, |
| 00:18:34 |
The operation in Vienna |
| 00:18:38 |
had several goals. |
| 00:18:41 |
The first was to collect funds, |
| 00:18:43 |
force Iran and Saudi Arabia |
| 00:18:46 |
to come up with money. |
| 00:18:48 |
The other goal was to execute |
| 00:18:51 |
Zaki Yamani, the Oil Minister. |
| 00:18:55 |
This goal made no sense to us. |
| 00:18:57 |
Why attack Zaki Yamani, |
| 00:19:01 |
who was for the Palestinian cause. |
| 00:19:06 |
So I had a talk with Oarlos, |
| 00:19:10 |
to change the goals, |
| 00:19:13 |
and not concentrate |
| 00:19:16 |
because there'd be |
| 00:19:36 |
Fortunately, during the |
| 00:19:42 |
At first, I was politically in charge, |
| 00:19:45 |
and he was militarily in charge. |
| 00:19:50 |
Later we decided to trade roles. |
| 00:20:27 |
In the end, |
| 00:20:31 |
and freed all the hostages for money |
| 00:20:35 |
which infuriated Waddi Haddad. |
| 00:20:38 |
It meant 3 to 5 million dollars |
| 00:20:42 |
- To spare Yamani. |
| 00:20:48 |
To me, |
| 00:20:53 |
A man who was thin then, |
| 00:20:55 |
wearing a Ohe Guevara beret, |
| 00:20:57 |
and Bouteflika beside him. |
| 00:21:02 |
We were in a huge government villa, |
| 00:21:06 |
we were treated like kings. |
| 00:21:08 |
The head of the Algerian |
| 00:21:11 |
sometimes with |
| 00:21:15 |
Then I started to have doubts: |
| 00:21:18 |
The Police Ohief |
| 00:21:22 |
"Hitlerwas a good man." |
| 00:21:23 |
I said to myself: "Poor FLN." |
| 00:21:29 |
They were put up in a villa |
| 00:21:32 |
and the Police Ohief, |
| 00:21:36 |
Oarlos had already seen |
| 00:21:40 |
They asked to see me, |
| 00:21:43 |
I went there, |
| 00:21:46 |
and we even played soccer... |
| 00:21:50 |
we tried to have fun like that. |
| 00:21:54 |
We exchanged phone numbers, |
| 00:21:59 |
and passwords, etc. |
| 00:22:00 |
We ate with Boumediène. |
| 00:22:02 |
He was Foreign Minister then. |
| 00:22:07 |
Later, Klein disappeared from sight |
| 00:22:11 |
He mailed his gun |
| 00:22:16 |
saying: "I'm H.J. Klein, |
| 00:22:20 |
"now I've tumed a page, |
| 00:22:22 |
"and I'm renouncing violence." |
| 00:22:49 |
When Waddi Haddad died, |
| 00:22:50 |
his organization split up |
| 00:22:53 |
into small groups |
| 00:22:57 |
Oarlos created his own organization. |
| 00:23:01 |
He saw that terrorism |
| 00:23:06 |
The Oarlos group |
| 00:23:10 |
while they were in East Europe. |
| 00:23:15 |
In East Germany |
| 00:23:18 |
spied on their hotel rooms, |
| 00:23:20 |
taped everything |
| 00:23:23 |
and wrote reports. |
| 00:23:32 |
Oarlos now lived |
| 00:23:35 |
in East Germany |
| 00:23:38 |
The East Germans |
| 00:23:43 |
without advising |
| 00:23:46 |
When the Hungarians found out |
| 00:23:49 |
they went to talk to him, |
| 00:23:52 |
but never to hand him |
| 00:24:03 |
The only person who's purer |
| 00:24:07 |
is Johannes Weinrich. |
| 00:24:09 |
He's too pure. |
| 00:24:11 |
This can be a dirty business. |
| 00:24:14 |
He's virginally pure. |
| 00:24:19 |
Magdalena, |
| 00:24:23 |
and changed lovers: |
| 00:24:25 |
She dropped Weinrich for the boss. |
| 00:24:35 |
They had a villa in Budapest, |
| 00:24:37 |
it was Oarlos' HQ for several years. |
| 00:24:44 |
What does a couple talk about in bed, |
| 00:24:49 |
before going to sleep? |
| 00:24:51 |
In bed, Oarlos told Magdalena Kopp |
| 00:24:55 |
that she had to do something, |
| 00:24:57 |
because she'd been |
| 00:25:00 |
and had never dirtied her hands. |
| 00:25:03 |
"Go to Paris, |
| 00:25:06 |
"You have to go get the explosives |
| 00:25:11 |
"and move them |
| 00:25:14 |
The Hungarian secret services |
| 00:25:54 |
The two ran away. |
| 00:25:58 |
The police... |
| 00:26:01 |
knocked down Magdalena Kopp |
| 00:26:05 |
And arrested her. |
| 00:26:08 |
Bruno Bréguet drew his gun |
| 00:26:14 |
It jammed: |
| 00:26:17 |
I remember the arrest of |
| 00:26:21 |
I was on duty |
| 00:26:26 |
In the car they abandoned, |
| 00:26:29 |
a bomb was found, |
| 00:26:33 |
The bomb was set to go off |
| 00:26:39 |
He had just dumped a briefcase. |
| 00:26:41 |
In it were found 2 grenades, |
| 00:26:43 |
5 kilos of penthrite |
| 00:26:47 |
That's a powerful explosive |
| 00:26:51 |
only by the army. |
| 00:26:52 |
But in the car due to be exploded, |
| 00:26:54 |
were also 2 gas cylinders, |
| 00:26:59 |
The idea |
| 00:27:02 |
in front of the Paris embassy |
| 00:27:08 |
to explode it |
| 00:27:13 |
"Pay us X number of millions, |
| 00:27:16 |
"or the next bomb |
| 00:27:19 |
"and it may even be |
| 00:27:24 |
They accepted a public defender. |
| 00:27:27 |
Then after thinking it over, |
| 00:27:31 |
maybe like Joan of Arc, |
| 00:27:34 |
and appointed me... |
| 00:27:49 |
Oarlos left a letter at the French |
| 00:27:55 |
"We're not your enemies. |
| 00:27:57 |
"We have a secret deal, free them." |
| 00:28:00 |
To Mr Gaston Deferre, |
| 00:28:02 |
"Sir, Two of our group, |
| 00:28:05 |
Signed. Carlos. My thumbprints |
| 00:28:09 |
Several ministers met |
| 00:28:12 |
Deferre said: "Whoever did that |
| 00:28:17 |
Once it was public, |
| 00:28:21 |
was that Oarlos would |
| 00:28:30 |
In this letter, dated late February, |
| 00:28:33 |
the ultimatum was one month: |
| 00:28:38 |
If they didn't get a satisfactory |
| 00:28:43 |
there'd be reprisals. |
| 00:28:45 |
After this, I had talks |
| 00:28:50 |
They were embarrassed |
| 00:28:53 |
to hold the trial |
| 00:28:56 |
that way... |
| 00:28:59 |
during the vacations, |
| 00:29:01 |
they'd face |
| 00:29:06 |
Bruno Bréguet |
| 00:29:09 |
that jammed as he was about to fire |
| 00:29:13 |
The whole case rested on that. |
| 00:29:16 |
If he threw away his gun |
| 00:29:19 |
but intended to kill, it was murder: |
| 00:29:24 |
But if he'd only aimed to frighten, |
| 00:29:28 |
he'd get much less. |
| 00:29:29 |
We had to convince the DA |
| 00:29:32 |
that he was just carrying |
| 00:29:37 |
he'd waved it in the air, |
| 00:29:39 |
had pulled the trigger accidentally: |
| 00:29:42 |
Luckily the gun jammed. |
| 00:29:44 |
First we had to convince the DA, |
| 00:29:48 |
then the Prosecutor, |
| 00:29:50 |
Mr Jean-Louis Debré, |
| 00:29:53 |
who was DAin this case, |
| 00:29:55 |
now a majority leader, |
| 00:29:57 |
and MrAlain Marsaud, |
| 00:29:59 |
now a right-wing deputy, |
| 00:30:02 |
both agree that the orders |
| 00:30:06 |
were not to be too tough... |
| 00:30:09 |
It was a real perversion |
| 00:30:12 |
of our judicial system |
| 00:30:16 |
and not a glorious page... |
| 00:30:19 |
It's best to tum that page fast. |
| 00:31:10 |
Did Carlos, with |
| 00:31:12 |
and his Syrian connections, |
| 00:31:14 |
organize |
| 00:31:18 |
The explosion went off |
| 00:31:23 |
had it started on time. |
| 00:31:25 |
Both Bruno Bréguet |
| 00:31:28 |
remained silent this morning. |
| 00:31:31 |
Proud, smiling scornfully, |
| 00:31:35 |
They didn't rise |
| 00:31:39 |
as if they knew that Carlos |
| 00:32:00 |
Dynamite in a train station locker. |
| 00:32:02 |
Train bomb threat. |
| 00:32:05 |
You seem to know him well? |
| 00:32:07 |
No, not at all. |
| 00:32:09 |
No letters or phone calls from him? |
| 00:32:11 |
Absolutely not. |
| 00:32:13 |
You're not acting |
| 00:32:16 |
Absolutely not. |
| 00:32:17 |
I'm here to defend |
| 00:32:20 |
the two prisoners, |
| 00:32:22 |
and I won't hide the sympathy |
| 00:32:26 |
That's all. |
| 00:32:27 |
"The truth is, Magdalena Kopp |
| 00:32:32 |
"You know that, and so do they. |
| 00:32:35 |
"They're soldiers of a noble cause |
| 00:32:37 |
"who want to free the oppressed, |
| 00:32:40 |
"and restore dignity |
| 00:32:43 |
"The rest of their army |
| 00:32:47 |
"until they are free. |
| 00:32:49 |
"Your only problem is when |
| 00:32:54 |
It was the truth. |
| 00:32:57 |
Which isn't the best thing to say. |
| 00:32:59 |
But it is: The Oourt |
| 00:33:03 |
Only the irresponsible press won't. |
| 00:33:06 |
"That's horrible... |
| 00:34:14 |
I stood in line at Ohristmas, |
| 00:34:17 |
as families could bring 5 kilos |
| 00:34:20 |
of foodstuff to prisoners. |
| 00:34:24 |
I took the orders. |
| 00:34:26 |
I nicknamed Bruno Bréguet |
| 00:34:30 |
He liked candied fruit. |
| 00:34:31 |
Magdalena Kopp was more refined: |
| 00:34:34 |
She wanted smoked German ham, |
| 00:34:37 |
country bread, |
| 00:34:40 |
ice-cream... |
| 00:34:42 |
I brought her all that, |
| 00:34:46 |
who were amazed to see me |
| 00:34:50 |
I can admit it now. |
| 00:34:54 |
Alcohol is forbidden in jail, |
| 00:34:58 |
but on the ice-cream |
| 00:35:42 |
He was her lawyer, |
| 00:35:44 |
and they developed |
| 00:35:45 |
a strong platonic relationship, |
| 00:35:49 |
And if you see Magdalena Kopp |
| 00:35:53 |
today, she still wears |
| 00:35:57 |
that Vergès gave her, |
| 00:36:01 |
that he gave her. |
| 00:36:24 |
It was new for Magdalena Kopp, |
| 00:36:26 |
who'd been seen as a sex object, |
| 00:36:29 |
for someone |
| 00:36:33 |
for a man to talk to her. |
| 00:36:38 |
Of course, there was surely also |
| 00:36:42 |
a sexual aspect to it. |
| 00:36:55 |
I have here a note |
| 00:37:00 |
about the trip |
| 00:37:05 |
to East Berlin, capital |
| 00:37:12 |
This document states |
| 00:37:16 |
from the Oarlos group |
| 00:37:23 |
met Vergès (Oode name "Herzog") |
| 00:37:28 |
Who advised them how to free |
| 00:37:32 |
Kopp... and Brèguet, |
| 00:37:38 |
or how to help them escape. |
| 00:37:42 |
I read here: |
| 00:37:44 |
"For Magdalena's escape, |
| 00:37:48 |
"Herzog suggests |
| 00:37:51 |
"to check her physical |
| 00:37:59 |
"and to use this visit |
| 00:38:03 |
"to organize Kopp's escape." |
| 00:38:14 |
The purpose of this report |
| 00:38:19 |
was definitely to inform superiors. |
| 00:38:22 |
Like me, for instance, |
| 00:38:26 |
I consider this report |
| 00:38:30 |
as objective and true to reality. |
| 00:38:37 |
I was able to get in contact |
| 00:38:42 |
who confirmed it to me. |
| 00:38:46 |
It wasn't a single STASI officer, |
| 00:38:48 |
a whole department kept |
| 00:38:53 |
It's very well documented. |
| 00:38:56 |
There are stacks of documents |
| 00:39:01 |
and its relations with Vergès. |
| 00:39:04 |
And just after the Wall came down |
| 00:39:08 |
I don't see how |
| 00:39:20 |
Central Prison near Paris |
| 00:39:26 |
These notebooks, |
| 00:39:30 |
during a search, |
| 00:39:32 |
clearly belonged |
| 00:39:38 |
They've even been published since. |
| 00:39:43 |
They were clearly diaries |
| 00:39:49 |
who wrote about what he did, |
| 00:39:51 |
to remind him |
| 00:39:54 |
what had been concluded, |
| 00:40:20 |
"New name: Neda = Sonja. |
| 00:40:24 |
"She'll act as liaison |
| 00:40:27 |
New Vergès codename=Gabriel |
| 00:40:31 |
"Gabriel arrives September 10. |
| 00:40:34 |
"Herzog's hotel bill. |
| 00:40:36 |
"Herzog got $3000." |
| 00:40:56 |
"Gabriel will come once a month. |
| 00:41:00 |
"He'll have a coverfor his visits." |
| 00:41:04 |
In 1982, in Budapest. |
| 00:41:06 |
It was ourfirst meeting at my home. |
| 00:41:09 |
We toasted with champagne. |
| 00:41:11 |
We got on well, he's a nice guy. |
| 00:41:14 |
So I recruited him. I said. |
| 00:41:16 |
"Listen, you'll carry messages |
| 00:41:58 |
One day, |
| 00:42:01 |
and I tell him: |
| 00:42:03 |
"Magdalena Kopp will be out soon. |
| 00:42:07 |
"Please tell me when." |
| 00:42:09 |
One day he tells me: "Let's say, |
| 00:42:13 |
So the following Monday, |
| 00:42:18 |
to be ready for anything, |
| 00:42:23 |
with her inside. |
| 00:42:26 |
I say to the warden: "You promised |
| 00:42:31 |
He says: "When the police |
| 00:42:35 |
That evening, |
| 00:42:38 |
"I'm in Offenburg, in Germany, |
| 00:42:44 |
"Strasbourg. |
| 00:42:47 |
"I don't know what's going on." |
| 00:42:50 |
I jumped on a plane to Strasbourg, |
| 00:42:55 |
where we drank champagne, |
| 00:43:00 |
to toast her liberation. |
| 00:43:01 |
Abit later, the phone rang. |
| 00:43:06 |
She picked it up |
| 00:43:11 |
She knew it was Oarlos. |
| 00:43:13 |
but she knew at once it was Oarlos. |
| 00:43:16 |
He said to her: |
| 00:43:19 |
And hung up. |
| 00:44:07 |
I realized, if I had his child, |
| 00:44:10 |
he'd never involve me again |
| 00:44:17 |
because I was |
| 00:44:28 |
Vergès wanted to screw her, |
| 00:44:31 |
in that hotel |
| 00:44:36 |
I know it, I know everything. |
| 00:44:48 |
Before your arrest, |
| 00:44:52 |
5 times, 10 times? |
| 00:44:54 |
20 times, 25 times. |
| 00:44:56 |
Before your arrest? |
| 00:44:57 |
Yes... I don't know how many times. |
| 00:45:02 |
And the following years, up to 1991. |
| 00:45:04 |
We last met |
| 00:45:09 |
Anyway, |
| 00:45:12 |
We liked him a lot. |
| 00:45:16 |
His slanted eyes |
| 00:45:20 |
My little girl knew him |
| 00:45:27 |
The neighbors' kids |
| 00:45:30 |
"Jacques is here!" |
| 00:45:36 |
So Oarlos lived in Damascus |
| 00:45:37 |
with Weinrich and Magdalena Kopp. |
| 00:45:41 |
One of their rare |
| 00:45:46 |
was François Genoud. |
| 00:45:50 |
We heard of Barbie's arrest, |
| 00:45:55 |
by the Bolivians, |
| 00:45:58 |
I said to my wife: |
| 00:46:04 |
My wife, |
| 00:46:07 |
"François, you don't know him. |
| 00:46:10 |
"Do you really |
| 00:46:13 |
"have to help him?" |
| 00:46:18 |
I answered: "Elisabeth, |
| 00:46:23 |
I phoned Vergès. |
| 00:46:26 |
He said: |
| 00:46:30 |
So I said to him: |
| 00:46:32 |
"When I think about a friend, |
| 00:46:36 |
"How do you feel about this?" |
| 00:46:39 |
He said: "It's very interesting." |
| 00:46:44 |
"Would you agree |
| 00:46:49 |
He first went to see Oussedik |
| 00:46:54 |
Oussedik refused |
| 00:46:58 |
"If I agreed to do it, |
| 00:47:00 |
"I'd feel I was betraying what I did |
| 00:47:05 |
"and that's out of the question." |
| 00:47:10 |
"I'm sure he'll do it very well." |
| 00:47:13 |
Oan you confirm |
| 00:47:19 |
It's for TF1, French TV. |
| 00:47:20 |
No comment. |
| 00:47:22 |
Are you paying for his defense? |
| 00:47:25 |
I have nothing to say on this matter. |
| 00:47:27 |
But you're interested in this trial? |
| 00:47:29 |
Like everybody else. |
| 00:47:32 |
You know Vergès, Barbie's lawyer? |
| 00:47:33 |
He's an old friend. That's all. |
| 00:47:49 |
In Lyon they put on a real show. |
| 00:47:51 |
They tumed the main hall |
| 00:47:54 |
to seat 700 people. |
| 00:47:59 |
Araised courtroom |
| 00:48:04 |
The French government |
| 00:48:07 |
Then it was up to us, |
| 00:48:10 |
within their set, |
| 00:48:16 |
The court is in session. |
| 00:48:19 |
Guards, bring in the prisoner. |
| 00:48:45 |
No one else |
| 00:48:48 |
He derailed a huge machine |
| 00:48:52 |
that wanted to make Barbie's trial, |
| 00:48:56 |
of World War II, |
| 00:49:01 |
That's fine, |
| 00:49:05 |
anything that could focus |
| 00:49:07 |
on the crimes against humanity |
| 00:49:10 |
committed in Algeria, |
| 00:49:14 |
It was exhilarating. |
| 00:49:17 |
There's 39 lawyers |
| 00:49:20 |
and I'm all alone. |
| 00:49:23 |
It means each of them |
| 00:49:29 |
Shortly before the trial, |
| 00:49:32 |
Roland Dumas said to me: |
| 00:49:33 |
"I've just been hired |
| 00:49:37 |
by a Resistance group, |
| 00:49:42 |
I answered: |
| 00:49:47 |
There'll be 30 or 40 lawyers like you, |
| 00:49:52 |
"feigning emotion that you don't feel." |
| 00:49:55 |
"No! |
| 00:49:56 |
"It's for human dignity!" |
| 00:49:58 |
I say to him: "The first three, |
| 00:50:03 |
"will be a hit." |
| 00:50:04 |
But by the fourth orfifth, |
| 00:50:09 |
But he took it on. |
| 00:50:11 |
I ask you, |
| 00:50:14 |
tell me the name |
| 00:50:19 |
A trial is magical, full of surprises. |
| 00:50:23 |
"Never again", |
| 00:50:27 |
But opposite me they were saying: |
| 00:50:31 |
"What ploy will the bastard |
| 00:50:35 |
They couldn't wait to hear |
| 00:50:40 |
And, being imaginative, |
| 00:50:44 |
I said: "Shit! You can't defend Barbie, |
| 00:50:48 |
"You're baiting everyone." |
| 00:50:50 |
He said: "Yes, but...", |
| 00:50:54 |
though I understood quite fast |
| 00:50:57 |
He converted me |
| 00:51:02 |
He said: "I'll put the French on trial, |
| 00:51:08 |
"I'll relate it to the Algerian war. |
| 00:51:11 |
"Follow the trial, you'll see." |
| 00:51:14 |
There's not much difference |
| 00:51:16 |
between the methods used in Algeria |
| 00:51:18 |
and the methods |
| 00:51:22 |
People died under torture in Algeria. |
| 00:51:25 |
I know it, |
| 00:51:34 |
I think Vergès is deeply anti-colonial |
| 00:51:38 |
He can't stand it. |
| 00:51:44 |
He won't let up on them, |
| 00:51:47 |
until France recognizes |
| 00:51:51 |
that some of its officers |
| 00:51:55 |
I can't stand |
| 00:52:00 |
even an enemy. |
| 00:52:03 |
For a lone man to be insulted |
| 00:52:09 |
I was asked: |
| 00:52:12 |
"I said I'd even defend Bush! |
| 00:52:15 |
"But only if he agrees |
| 00:52:46 |
When Ayatollah Khomeini |
| 00:52:53 |
he got a lot of help |
| 00:52:56 |
from the Palestinians. |
| 00:52:58 |
The Palestinians |
| 00:53:02 |
in his takeover. |
| 00:53:03 |
During the Iranian Revolution, |
| 00:53:06 |
Ohapour Bakhtiar, |
| 00:53:11 |
fled Iran and settled in Paris. |
| 00:53:13 |
Khomeini decided |
| 00:53:15 |
that Bakhtiar |
| 00:53:18 |
It was probably |
| 00:53:20 |
a "confidential" task |
| 00:53:23 |
that Ayatollah Khomeini gave |
| 00:53:28 |
who had no talent at all |
| 00:53:32 |
Our attempt was a total failure: |
| 00:53:35 |
I was wounded |
| 00:53:40 |
In a gunfight |
| 00:53:43 |
a neighborwas killed, |
| 00:53:47 |
Naccache, |
| 00:53:50 |
Khomeini can't let him |
| 00:53:53 |
Anti-French riots |
| 00:53:57 |
The Naccache affair is yet another |
| 00:54:00 |
problem between France and Iran. |
| 00:54:02 |
Iran is at warwith Iraq, |
| 00:54:06 |
supplying arms, planes, |
| 00:54:10 |
France had received |
| 00:54:14 |
at the end of his reign, |
| 00:54:16 |
a huge sum |
| 00:54:19 |
to set up a nuclear industrial project. |
| 00:54:22 |
Iran wants that money back. |
| 00:54:24 |
France says: "The Shah lent it to us, |
| 00:54:29 |
But Iran needs this money |
| 00:54:33 |
In a way, |
| 00:54:34 |
our diplomacy |
| 00:54:38 |
and didn't know it. |
| 00:54:39 |
But Iran was very aware of it, |
| 00:54:42 |
and was the victim |
| 00:54:46 |
It wanted to get a message across. |
| 00:54:49 |
Eiffel Tower bomb! |
| 00:54:51 |
Champs Elysées bomb! |
| 00:54:53 |
"The bookstore was us, too." |
| 00:54:55 |
Bomb in FNAC store! |
| 00:54:57 |
"Free Naccache and Garbidjian fast." |
| 00:55:01 |
Bullet Train bomb! |
| 00:55:02 |
"The Bullet Train |
| 00:55:06 |
Starting in February, March, |
| 00:55:08 |
there was a big wave of attacks, |
| 00:55:11 |
committed and claimed |
| 00:55:15 |
supporting Arab political prisoners, |
| 00:55:19 |
demanding the liberation of 3 people |
| 00:55:21 |
with very different profiles, |
| 00:55:25 |
Anis Naccache, Iranian-backed. |
| 00:55:30 |
Garbidjian, |
| 00:55:38 |
And Georges lbrahim Abdallah, |
| 00:55:40 |
a former Waddi Haddad |
| 00:55:42 |
commando member, |
| 00:55:43 |
who created |
| 00:55:47 |
and killed U.S. And Israeli diplomats. |
| 00:55:51 |
We, in Govemment Security, |
| 00:55:56 |
had been formed |
| 00:56:00 |
I realized that these 3 characters, |
| 00:56:02 |
whose liberation |
| 00:56:07 |
and who were all serving |
| 00:56:13 |
hadn't been in contact with anyone. |
| 00:56:17 |
Judge Marsaud tried, I say, |
| 00:56:24 |
threatening Abdallah |
| 00:56:27 |
with being sent on a "wood chore", |
| 00:56:30 |
Without waming me, |
| 00:56:34 |
to the Santé prison. |
| 00:56:37 |
But... |
| 00:56:40 |
prisons have leaks. |
| 00:56:42 |
A guard phoned me to say: |
| 00:56:45 |
"Your client is in the Santé prison." |
| 00:56:50 |
Abdallah was negotiating with us, |
| 00:56:53 |
orwe were negotiating with him, |
| 00:56:55 |
so he could phone Beirut |
| 00:56:59 |
and tell his brothers, |
| 00:57:01 |
who were suspected |
| 00:57:05 |
and tell his brothers, |
| 00:57:08 |
that he opposed being freed |
| 00:57:13 |
Things were going quite well, |
| 00:57:16 |
except that there was a leak, |
| 00:57:18 |
most probably |
| 00:57:25 |
who let him know |
| 00:57:30 |
and concemed about his treatment. |
| 00:57:33 |
From then on, it's true |
| 00:57:35 |
that Abdallah's attitude |
| 00:57:38 |
and he clammed up, |
| 00:57:41 |
knowing that Vergès |
| 00:57:53 |
Why was the last attack |
| 00:57:57 |
Because they'd run out of explosives. |
| 00:58:02 |
They had no more explosives. |
| 00:58:03 |
Arrested terrorists |
| 00:58:06 |
If we'd known that, |
| 00:58:08 |
"Get on the phone |
| 00:58:16 |
But we didn't know |
| 00:58:21 |
So to us Naccache was just in it, |
| 00:58:25 |
almost by accident. |
| 00:58:28 |
I started making political statements, |
| 00:58:31 |
like backing Khomeini's fatwa |
| 00:58:36 |
I had ideas |
| 00:58:39 |
about the position |
| 00:58:42 |
All we wanted |
| 00:58:45 |
was to get Naccache |
| 00:58:48 |
But that point of view |
| 00:58:50 |
wasn't shared by... |
| 00:58:53 |
President Mitterrand was against it. |
| 00:58:56 |
During those ten years, |
| 00:58:58 |
there were new Islamic movements, |
| 00:59:01 |
They all felt |
| 00:59:04 |
that I was a symbol, |
| 00:59:15 |
He wrote me |
| 00:59:19 |
I went, and he said then: |
| 00:59:23 |
"Attorney, |
| 00:59:26 |
"So far I haven't been |
| 00:59:29 |
"But now, |
| 00:59:33 |
"will settle their nuclear differences. |
| 00:59:37 |
"If they reach an agreement, |
| 00:59:41 |
"I'll be a minor item. |
| 00:59:43 |
"I want to be part |
| 00:59:48 |
"So I'm going on a hunger strike |
| 00:59:51 |
"and need you as my lawyer." |
| 00:59:53 |
When he visited me |
| 00:59:56 |
he asked me about my childhood, |
| 01:00:02 |
I told him: |
| 01:00:04 |
"I went on my first demonstration |
| 01:00:09 |
He smiled, and said: |
| 01:00:14 |
"I was Djamila's lawyer |
| 01:00:18 |
We became friends |
| 01:00:20 |
and I saw we were on |
| 01:00:23 |
that he could make |
| 01:00:28 |
to the media on my behalf |
| 01:00:31 |
on why I'd taken this step. |
| 01:00:34 |
He lost 27 kilos, |
| 01:00:39 |
Tomorrow |
| 01:00:45 |
So his state is alarming. |
| 01:00:47 |
We waited and when... |
| 01:00:51 |
we saw it was legally feasible, |
| 01:00:56 |
Roland Dumas and I |
| 01:00:58 |
"Now's the time to do it, |
| 01:01:00 |
"and immediately! We can't lose... |
| 01:01:03 |
"We should expel this guy." |
| 01:01:06 |
So President Mitterrand |
| 01:01:09 |
though all 5 of us had life sentences, |
| 01:01:13 |
and we got out after 10 years. |
| 01:01:16 |
It was a political solution. |
| 01:01:34 |
Naccache was the first prisoner |
| 01:01:40 |
who clearly said he was part |
| 01:01:45 |
It was the first step |
| 01:01:47 |
of Islam-inspired terrorism |
| 01:01:51 |
We were the first |
| 01:01:54 |
long before the Americans, |
| 01:02:27 |
Oarlos' error in France |
| 01:02:29 |
was killing 3 undercover cops. |
| 01:02:35 |
Oarlos was kidnapped in Sudan. |
| 01:02:42 |
We know Oarlos and Vergès |
| 01:02:47 |
for a long time, |
| 01:02:49 |
Oarlos said he was his lawyer. |
| 01:02:52 |
When the judge |
| 01:02:55 |
he couldn't reach him all day. |
| 01:02:59 |
So Oarlos then appointed Oussedik. |
| 01:03:06 |
Oussedik filed a kidnapping complaint. |
| 01:03:09 |
Oarlos agreed to it, |
| 01:03:12 |
But later he told us |
| 01:03:16 |
claiming it was too soon. |
| 01:03:20 |
It would irk Pasqua, |
| 01:03:26 |
Vergès said he'd negotiate |
| 01:03:28 |
and to drop the complaint. |
| 01:03:33 |
He's a traitor. |
| 01:03:36 |
I always thought |
| 01:03:39 |
that he was a Communist at heart. |
| 01:03:43 |
That's a betrayal. |
| 01:03:46 |
And as a lawyer, he can't do that. |
| 01:03:51 |
Oussedik was furious. |
| 01:03:53 |
At Vergès, |
| 01:03:56 |
who advised... |
| 01:03:58 |
Oarlos to drop the kidnapping |
| 01:04:02 |
and its secret service, |
| 01:04:05 |
He's furious, |
| 01:04:11 |
So he starts asking questions, |
| 01:04:15 |
Oussedik starts to inquire... |
| 01:04:19 |
Vergès. His real links to Carlos. |
| 01:04:24 |
Vergès was Carlos' link |
| 01:04:41 |
A new visit yesterday for Carlos. |
| 01:04:43 |
Jacques Vergès told him |
| 01:04:46 |
that he, Vergès, |
| 01:04:53 |
He laughs a lot. |
| 01:04:57 |
"I'll get out, |
| 01:04:59 |
Judge Bruguière has new evidence |
| 01:05:07 |
Judge Bruguière |
| 01:05:09 |
then to charge you, |
| 01:05:12 |
They're trying, |
| 01:05:14 |
with documents they say |
| 01:05:18 |
to throw me off balance. |
| 01:05:24 |
If they hope to get rid of me |
| 01:05:29 |
they won't succeed. |
| 01:05:34 |
and I'll certainly talk. |
| 01:05:37 |
- Are you part of Oarlos' network? |
| 01:05:41 |
- You'd swear to it? |
| 01:05:43 |
You'd swear it in a law court? |
| 01:05:45 |
Of course. |
| 01:05:47 |
You spoke to Oarlos |
| 01:05:50 |
- No. |
| 01:05:52 |
- You had no news? |
| 01:05:53 |
- Never? |
| 01:05:54 |
Even on trips you made. |
| 01:05:57 |
- Since how long? |
| 01:06:00 |
Since forever? |
| 01:06:02 |
You weren't in Eastern bloc countries |
| 01:06:05 |
Never. The STASI claim that, |
| 01:06:10 |
Even if I saw Carlos, it's my right. |
| 01:06:14 |
Oarlos was my client |
| 01:06:19 |
Professional rules forbid me |
| 01:07:05 |
"Omar killed me" |
| 01:07:58 |
We lawyers |
| 01:08:01 |
have a big advantage over doctors. |
| 01:08:04 |
We can tell someone: |
| 01:08:08 |
But if we agree to do it, |
| 01:08:12 |
to fight tooth and nail to defend him, |
| 01:08:16 |
and use all every legal device |
| 01:08:21 |
But we must never |
| 01:08:26 |
or else... |
| 01:08:28 |
we become vulnerable. |
| 01:10:29 |
Translation: Sandy Whitelaw |
| 01:10:32 |
Subtitles: ONST, Montreal |
