|
Fog Of War Eleven Lessons From The Life Of Robert S
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| 00:00:20 |
Is this chart at a reasonable |
| 00:00:23 |
Or do you want it lowered? |
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- Fine. |
| 00:00:30 |
Earlier tonight... |
| 00:00:31 |
Let me first ask the TV. |
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All set? |
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Let me hear your voice level, |
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- How's my voice level? |
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Terrific. |
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Now, I remember exactly |
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I remember how it started, |
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You can fix it up. |
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I don't want to go back, because |
| 00:03:04 |
- Go ahead! |
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Any military commander |
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...or with those he's |
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...that he has made mistakes |
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He's killed people, unnecessarily. |
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His own troops or other troops. |
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Through mistakes, |
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A hundred, or thousands, or tens of |
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But he hasn't destroyed nations. |
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...don't make the same mistake twice. |
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And we all do. Maybe we make |
| 00:03:42 |
...but hopefully not four or five. |
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There'll be no learning period |
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Make one mistake |
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In my life, I've been part of wars. |
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Three years in the U.S. Army |
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Seven years as secretary of defense |
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Thirteen years at the World Bank. |
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At my age, 85... |
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...I'm at an age |
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...and derive some conclusions |
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My rule has been, "try to learn. " |
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Try to understand what happened. |
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Develop the lessons |
| 00:05:08 |
This is the secretary of defense of |
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His department absorbs 10 percent |
| 00:05:15 |
...and over half of every tax dollar. |
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His job has been called |
| 00:05:20 |
...and he is the most controversial |
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Walter Lippmann calls him both |
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...and the first one to ever assert |
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His critics call him a "con man," |
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..."an arrogant dictator. " |
| 00:06:19 |
Mr. Secretary, I've noticed |
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...that little silver calendar thing there. |
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Yes, this was given |
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...17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23... |
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...24, 25, 26, 27, and finally 28, |
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...when we literally look ed down |
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Under a cloak of deceit... |
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...the Soviet Union introduced |
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...into Cuba... |
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...targeting 90 million Americans. |
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The CIA said the warheads |
| 00:08:03 |
They thought 20 were coming |
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We mobilized 180,000 troops. |
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The first day's air attack |
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...a huge air attack. |
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Kennedy was trying |
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I was trying to help him |
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And General Curtis LeMay, |
| 00:09:30 |
...as a matter of fact, |
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" Let's go in. |
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On that critical Saturday, |
| 00:10:01 |
...we had two Khrushchev |
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One had come in Friday night, |
| 00:10:10 |
...by a man who was either drunk, |
| 00:10:15 |
Basically, he said, " If you'll |
| 00:10:20 |
...we'll take the missiles out. " |
| 00:10:22 |
Then, before we could respond, |
| 00:10:25 |
...that had been dictated |
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And it said, in effect, " If you attack... |
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...we're prepared... |
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...to confront you with |
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So, what to do? We had the |
| 00:10:45 |
At the elbow of President Kennedy |
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...former U.S. Ambassador to Moscow. |
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He and Jane, his wife, had lived with |
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Tommy Thompson said, |
| 00:11:00 |
...I urge you to respond |
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The president said to Tommy, |
| 00:11:10 |
Tommy said, |
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Now, that takes a lot of guts. |
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In Thompson's mind was this thought: |
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" Khrushchev's gotten |
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He would then think to himself, |
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...if I can get out of this with a deal |
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'Kennedy was going to destroy |
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Thompson, knowing Khrushchev |
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" Khrushchev will accept that. " |
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And Thompson was right. |
| 00:12:11 |
We must try to put ourselves |
| 00:12:14 |
...and look at us |
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...just to understand |
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...that lie behind their decisions |
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Khrushchev's advisors were saying: |
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"There can be no deal... |
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...unless you somewhat |
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...when you ask us to reduce |
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Also, we had attempted |
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Well, with the Bay of Pigs. That |
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I think that's correct. |
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But more importantly, from a Cuban |
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...they knew what, in a sense, |
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We had attempted |
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...under Eisenhower and Kennedy, |
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And in addition to that, major voices |
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In the first message, |
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"We and you ought not pull |
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...which you have tied |
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Because the more |
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...the tighter the knot will be tied. |
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And then it will be necessary |
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...and what that would mean |
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I have participated in two wars |
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...when it has rolled through |
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...everywhere sowing |
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For such is the logic of war. |
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If people do not display wisdom... |
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...they will clash like blind moles... |
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...and then mutual annihilation |
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I want to say, |
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At the end, we lucked out. |
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It was luck that prevented nuclear war. |
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We came that close |
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Rational individuals. |
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Khrushchev was rational. |
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Rational individuals came that close |
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And that danger exists today. |
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The major lesson |
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The indefinite combination |
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...and nuclear weapons |
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Is it right and proper... |
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...that today there are 7500 strategic |
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...of which 2500 |
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...to be launched by the decision |
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It wasn't until January, 1992... |
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...in a meeting chaired by Castro |
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...that I learned |
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...including 90 tactical warheads... |
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...were on the island at the time |
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I couldn't believe |
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...and Castro got very angry with me, |
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" Mr. President, let's stop this meeting. |
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I'm not sure I got the translation right. " |
| 00:17:01 |
Mr. President, |
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Number one, did you know |
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Number two, if you did... |
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...would you have recommended |
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...in the face of a U.S. Attack, |
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Three, if he had used them, |
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He said, "One, |
| 00:17:18 |
Two, I would not have |
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I did recommend to Khrushchev |
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Three, what would happen to Cuba? |
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That's how close we were. |
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And he was willing to accept that? |
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Yes... Oh, and he went on to say: |
| 00:17:38 |
" Mr. McNamara, |
| 00:17:41 |
...had been in a similar situation, |
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I said, " Mr. President, I hope to God |
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Pull the temple down on our heads? |
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In a sense, we'd won. |
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We got the missiles out without war. |
| 00:18:03 |
My deputy and I brought |
| 00:18:07 |
...and we sat down with Kennedy. |
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I don't want you ever to say it, |
| 00:18:14 |
And LeMay said, |
| 00:18:17 |
We should go in |
| 00:18:24 |
LeMay believed that ultimately... |
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...we'd confront these people |
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And by God, we better do it |
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...than we will have in the future. |
| 00:18:48 |
At the time, we had a 17-to-1 strategic |
| 00:18:53 |
We'd done 10 times |
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We were certain we could |
| 00:19:03 |
...if we limited the tests. |
| 00:19:07 |
They said, "The Soviets will cheat. " |
| 00:19:09 |
Well, I said, " How will they cheat?" |
| 00:19:11 |
You won't believe this, |
| 00:19:14 |
"They'll test them behind the moon. " |
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I said, "You're out of your mind. " |
| 00:19:22 |
That's absurd. |
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It's almost impossible |
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...to put themselves back |
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In my seven years as secretary... |
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...we came within a hairsbreadth |
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...on three different occasions. |
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Twenty-four hours a day, |
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...for seven years as secretary |
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During the Kennedy administration, |
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It was tested in the atmosphere. |
| 00:20:01 |
Cold War? Hell, it was a hot war. |
| 00:20:08 |
I think the human race |
| 00:20:14 |
...about conflict. |
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Is that what we want |
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My earliest memory |
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It was November 11, 1918. |
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You may not believe |
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I remember the tops |
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...being crowded |
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...cheering and kissing |
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End of World War I. We'd won. |
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But also celebrating the belief... |
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...of many Americans, |
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...we'd fought a war |
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His dream was... |
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...that the world could avoid |
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Disputes among great nations |
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I also remember... |
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...that I wasn't allowed to go outdoors |
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...without wearing a mask. |
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There was an ungodly flu epidemic. |
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Large numbers of Americans |
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And millions across the world. |
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My class in the first grade was housed |
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But we had an absolutely |
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And this teacher gave a test |
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...and she re- seated the class |
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There were vertical rows, and she put |
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...in the first seat |
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And I worked my tail off |
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Now, the majority of the classmates |
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Wasps, if you will. |
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But my competition for that first seat |
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On Saturday and Sunday, |
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They went to their ethnic schools. |
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They learned their culture, history. |
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And they came back determined on |
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But they didn't do it very often. |
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One congressman called you "Mr. |
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And there's been suggestion |
| 00:23:14 |
...that you come up there, |
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...prepared to give them |
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Is that your attitude? |
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No. Perhaps they don't know |
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And there is much indeed. |
| 00:23:27 |
I do make a serious effort... |
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...to prepare myself properly for these |
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I suppose I spend, perhaps, |
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...in testifying before |
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And each hour of testimony requires |
| 00:23:45 |
What about the contention that your |
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Have you ever been wrong, sir? |
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Oh, yes, indeed. My heavens. |
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I'm not gonna tell you |
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If you don't know, |
| 00:24:00 |
Oh, on countless occasions. |
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I applied to Stanford University. |
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But I couldn't afford it, so I lived |
| 00:24:12 |
Fifty-two dollars a year tuition. |
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I started Berkeley at the bottom |
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Twenty-five million males |
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Out of that class of 3500... |
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...three elected to Phi Beta Kappa |
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Of those three, one became |
| 00:24:30 |
...the third went to work |
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...and was damn happy |
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The society was on the verge of... |
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...I don't want to say revolution... |
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...although, had Roosevelt not done |
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...it could've become |
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In any event, that was |
| 00:24:53 |
I never heard of Plato and Aristotle... |
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...before I became |
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And I remember the professor, |
| 00:25:00 |
...the freshman |
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I couldn't wait |
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I took more philosophy courses, |
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...and one in ethics. |
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Stress on values... |
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...something beyond one's self... |
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...and a responsibility to society. |
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After graduating |
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...I went to Harvard Graduate School |
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...and then I went back |
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I began to court this young lady that |
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...in our first week at Berkeley: |
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Margaret Craig. |
| 00:25:58 |
And I was making some progress |
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I proposed and she accepted. |
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She went with her aunt and her mother |
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She telegraphed me, |
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...to include your middle name, |
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I wired back, |
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She said, |
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Well, I mean, it is Strange. |
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And it was a marriage |
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At the end of a year, |
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The delivery costs were $100, |
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Those were some of the happiest |
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And then the war came. |
| 00:27:05 |
I'd been promoted |
| 00:27:07 |
I was the youngest at Harvard. |
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And on a salary, by the way, |
| 00:27:19 |
Harvard Business School's |
| 00:27:23 |
The males were being drafted |
| 00:27:26 |
So the dean, being farsighted, |
| 00:27:30 |
...to establish an officer candidate |
| 00:27:33 |
...Statistical Control |
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We said, " Look, we're not gonna |
| 00:27:47 |
We're gonna select the people. " |
| 00:27:50 |
You have a punch card |
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...brought into the Air Corps. |
| 00:27:55 |
We're gonna run those punch cards |
| 00:28:00 |
...and we're gonna sort on age, |
| 00:28:05 |
...grades, et cetera. |
| 00:28:09 |
We were looking for the best |
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The best brains, |
| 00:28:15 |
...the best judgment. |
| 00:28:29 |
The U.S. Was just beginning to bomb. |
| 00:28:33 |
We were bombing by daylight. |
| 00:28:35 |
The loss rate was very, very high. |
| 00:28:40 |
So they commissioned a study. |
| 00:28:44 |
We found the abort rate |
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Twenty percent of the planes |
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...to bomb Germany turned around |
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That was a hell of a mess. |
| 00:28:57 |
I think it was called Form 1-A... |
| 00:28:59 |
...or something like that |
| 00:29:02 |
And if you aborted a mission, |
| 00:29:05 |
So we get all these things |
| 00:29:08 |
...and we finally concluded: |
| 00:29:10 |
It was baloney. |
| 00:29:12 |
They were aborting out of fear. |
| 00:29:15 |
Because the loss rate |
| 00:29:18 |
The combat tour |
| 00:29:20 |
It didn't mean 100 percent |
| 00:29:22 |
...but a lot of them were gonna be |
| 00:29:25 |
...and they found reasons |
| 00:29:29 |
So we reported this. |
| 00:29:37 |
One of the commanders |
| 00:29:40 |
Colonel in command of a B-24 group. |
| 00:29:44 |
He was the finest combat commander |
| 00:29:48 |
But he was extraordinarily belligerent, |
| 00:29:52 |
He got the report. |
| 00:29:55 |
He said, " I will be in the |
| 00:29:58 |
Any plane that takes off |
| 00:30:01 |
...or the crew will be |
| 00:30:04 |
The abort rate dropped overnight. |
| 00:30:08 |
Now, that's the kind |
| 00:30:12 |
Ladies and gentlemen, |
| 00:30:17 |
My friends, on this Christmas Eve... |
| 00:30:20 |
...there are over 10 million men... |
| 00:30:22 |
...in the Armed Forces of |
| 00:30:28 |
One year ago, |
| 00:30:33 |
By next July first, that number |
| 00:30:40 |
Plenty of bad news for the Japs |
| 00:31:05 |
The U.S. Air Force had a new |
| 00:31:17 |
The B-17 s and B-24s in Europe |
| 00:31:25 |
The problem was that they |
| 00:31:28 |
...and to fighter aircraft. |
| 00:31:31 |
To relieve that, this B-29 |
| 00:31:34 |
...that bombed from high altitude... |
| 00:31:36 |
...and it was thought we could destroy |
| 00:31:49 |
I was brought back |
| 00:31:52 |
...and assigned to the first B-29s, |
| 00:31:57 |
We had to fly those planes from |
| 00:32:03 |
Then we had to fly fuel |
| 00:32:26 |
The airfields were built |
| 00:32:34 |
It was an insane operation. |
| 00:32:40 |
I can still remember them |
| 00:32:44 |
...to crush the stone |
| 00:32:49 |
Somebody would slip, |
| 00:32:51 |
...everybody would |
| 00:32:58 |
We were supposed |
| 00:33:00 |
There were no tanker aircraft there. |
| 00:33:04 |
...fly from India to Chengdu, |
| 00:33:07 |
...make enough missions |
| 00:33:11 |
...fly to Yawata, Japan, bomb |
| 00:33:17 |
We had so little training on this |
| 00:33:23 |
...we actually found, to get |
| 00:33:26 |
...instead of offloading fuel, |
| 00:33:32 |
To make a long story short, |
| 00:33:36 |
And it was LeMay who really came to |
| 00:33:39 |
...to move the whole thing to the |
| 00:34:27 |
LeMay was focused |
| 00:34:31 |
Target destruction. |
| 00:34:36 |
Most Air Force generals can say |
| 00:34:39 |
...how many tons of bombs they |
| 00:34:42 |
But he was the only person |
| 00:34:44 |
...in the senior command in the |
| 00:34:48 |
...on the loss of his crews |
| 00:34:56 |
I was on the island of Guam, |
| 00:35:04 |
In that single night, |
| 00:35:08 |
...100,000 Japanese civilians |
| 00:35:12 |
Men, women and children. |
| 00:35:17 |
Were you aware this was |
| 00:35:22 |
Well, I was... |
| 00:35:25 |
...part of a mechanism that, |
| 00:35:44 |
I analyzed bombing operations, |
| 00:35:49 |
I.e., not more efficient in the sense of |
| 00:35:52 |
...but more efficient |
| 00:35:59 |
I wrote one report analyzing... |
| 00:36:03 |
...the efficiency |
| 00:36:07 |
The B-29 could get above the fighter |
| 00:36:11 |
...so the loss rate |
| 00:36:14 |
The problem was, the accuracy |
| 00:36:29 |
Now, I don't want to suggest |
| 00:36:32 |
...that led to... |
| 00:36:39 |
It isn't that I'm absolving myself |
| 00:36:42 |
I don't want to suggest that it was I... |
| 00:36:44 |
...that put in LeMay's mind... |
| 00:36:47 |
...that his operations |
| 00:36:50 |
...and had to be drastically changed. |
| 00:36:54 |
He took the B-29s |
| 00:36:58 |
...and he decided to bomb |
| 00:37:21 |
I participated in the interrogation... |
| 00:37:23 |
...of the B-29 bomber crews |
| 00:37:28 |
A room full of crewmen |
| 00:37:32 |
A captain got up, |
| 00:37:34 |
"Goddamn it, I'd like to know who |
| 00:37:37 |
...that took this magnificent airplane, |
| 00:37:42 |
...and he took it down to 5000 feet, |
| 00:37:46 |
He was shot and killed. " |
| 00:37:49 |
LeMay spoke in monosyllables. |
| 00:37:53 |
I never heard him say... |
| 00:37:55 |
...more than two words in sequence. |
| 00:37:57 |
It was basically, "Yes," " No," "Yep"... |
| 00:38:01 |
..."That's all," or " Hell with it. " |
| 00:38:06 |
And LeMay was totally intolerant |
| 00:38:09 |
He never engaged in discussion |
| 00:38:13 |
He stood up. |
| 00:38:15 |
"Why are we here? |
| 00:38:18 |
Why are we here? |
| 00:38:21 |
You lost your wingman. |
| 00:38:25 |
...it does you. |
| 00:38:26 |
I sent him there. |
| 00:38:29 |
And I've been there, |
| 00:38:31 |
But you lost one wingman... |
| 00:38:34 |
...and we destroyed Tokyo. " |
| 00:38:43 |
Fifty square miles of Tokyo |
| 00:38:47 |
Tokyo was a wooden city, |
| 00:38:50 |
...it just burned it. |
| 00:39:39 |
The choice of incendiary bombs... |
| 00:39:42 |
...where did that come from? |
| 00:39:46 |
I think the issue... |
| 00:39:48 |
...is not so much incendiary bombs. |
| 00:39:52 |
...in order to win, should you kill |
| 00:39:56 |
By firebombing or any other way? |
| 00:39:57 |
LeMay's answer would be, |
| 00:40:00 |
" McNamara, do you mean to say... |
| 00:40:02 |
...that instead of killing 100,000... |
| 00:40:04 |
...burning to death 100,000 Japanese |
| 00:40:07 |
...we should have burned to death |
| 00:40:10 |
And then had our soldiers |
| 00:40:13 |
...and been slaughtered |
| 00:40:15 |
Is that what you're proposing? |
| 00:40:18 |
Why was it necessary to drop |
| 00:40:22 |
...if LeMay was burning up Japan? |
| 00:40:24 |
And he went on from Tokyo |
| 00:40:28 |
58 percent of Yokohama. Yokohama |
| 00:40:32 |
58 percent of Cleveland destroyed. |
| 00:40:36 |
Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. |
| 00:40:41 |
99 percent of the equivalent |
| 00:40:46 |
40 percent of the equivalent |
| 00:40:52 |
This was all done before... |
| 00:40:55 |
...the dropping |
| 00:40:57 |
Which, by the way, was dropped |
| 00:41:03 |
Proportionality should |
| 00:41:30 |
Killing 50 to 90 percent... |
| 00:41:33 |
...of the people |
| 00:41:37 |
...and then bombing them |
| 00:41:41 |
...is not proportional, |
| 00:41:44 |
...to the objectives |
| 00:42:04 |
I don't fault Truman |
| 00:42:08 |
The U.S. -Japanese War was |
| 00:42:11 |
...in all of human history. |
| 00:42:13 |
Kamikaze pilots, suicide, |
| 00:42:17 |
What one can criticize... |
| 00:42:18 |
...is that the human race |
| 00:42:21 |
...has not really grappled with |
| 00:42:27 |
Was there a rule then that said you |
| 00:42:31 |
...shouldn't burn to death 100,000 |
| 00:42:36 |
LeMay said, " If we'd lost the war... |
| 00:42:38 |
...we'd all have been prosecuted |
| 00:42:41 |
And I think he's right. |
| 00:42:45 |
He, and I'd say I... |
| 00:42:48 |
...were behaving as war criminals. |
| 00:42:55 |
LeMay recognized |
| 00:42:59 |
...would be thought immoral... |
| 00:43:02 |
...if his side had lost. |
| 00:43:06 |
But what makes it immoral if you lose |
| 00:45:36 |
At some point, we have to approach |
| 00:45:40 |
...how you can best |
| 00:45:43 |
Yeah, well... |
| 00:45:46 |
...that's a hard, hard question. |
| 00:45:52 |
I think we have to approach it |
| 00:45:56 |
But first I'll have to talk about Ford. |
| 00:45:59 |
I've got to go back |
| 00:46:14 |
I had a terrible headache... |
| 00:46:17 |
...so Marg drove me in |
| 00:46:21 |
A week later, Marg came in... |
| 00:46:24 |
...many of the same symptoms. |
| 00:46:26 |
It's hard to believe, and I don't think |
| 00:46:31 |
...where two individuals, |
| 00:46:33 |
...came down, essentially, |
| 00:46:37 |
We were both in the hospital |
| 00:46:44 |
A friend of mine said: |
| 00:46:45 |
"We're gonna find a corporation |
| 00:46:48 |
...the advice and capabilities |
| 00:46:51 |
...I'm forming and you gotta be in it. " |
| 00:46:53 |
I said, "To hell with it. |
| 00:46:58 |
Marg and I wanna do that. |
| 00:47:01 |
He said, " Look, Bob, |
| 00:47:04 |
You're crazy as hell. " |
| 00:47:06 |
...the company that most needs |
| 00:47:10 |
I said, " How'd you learn that?" |
| 00:47:15 |
Of the top 1000 executives at Ford... |
| 00:47:17 |
...I don't believe there were |
| 00:47:22 |
...and Henry Ford II needed help. |
| 00:47:26 |
They were gonna give us tests. |
| 00:47:28 |
Two full days of testing... |
| 00:47:30 |
...intelligence tests, achievement tests, |
| 00:47:34 |
This sounds absurd, but I remember |
| 00:47:38 |
"Would you rather be a florist |
| 00:47:44 |
I had been a florist. |
| 00:47:47 |
...during some of my |
| 00:47:50 |
I put down coal miner. |
| 00:47:55 |
This group of 10 people |
| 00:47:58 |
...in the officer candidate school |
| 00:48:01 |
In some tests we had the highest |
| 00:48:05 |
In other tests, we were in the upper |
| 00:48:16 |
From 1926 to 1946, |
| 00:48:19 |
...Ford Motor Company |
| 00:48:23 |
It was a God-awful mess. |
| 00:48:28 |
I thought we had a responsibility |
| 00:48:32 |
...and God knows you cannot believe |
| 00:48:55 |
They had no market research |
| 00:48:57 |
Manager said, |
| 00:49:01 |
I said, " Find out who's |
| 00:49:03 |
Everybody says it's a no-good car. |
| 00:49:05 |
It was only selling about |
| 00:49:08 |
...but I want to know |
| 00:49:10 |
Is it gonna stay the same, |
| 00:49:12 |
Find out who buys them. " |
| 00:49:14 |
He came back six months later, |
| 00:49:16 |
"Well, they're professors, and they're |
| 00:49:20 |
...and they're obviously people |
| 00:49:24 |
Well, that set me to thinking about |
| 00:49:28 |
Was there a market we were missing? |
| 00:49:31 |
At this time nobody believed |
| 00:49:35 |
They wanted |
| 00:49:39 |
Cadillac, with these huge, |
| 00:49:42 |
...set the style for the industry |
| 00:49:47 |
And that's what we were up against. |
| 00:49:53 |
We introduced the Falcon |
| 00:49:56 |
...and it was a huge success |
| 00:50:04 |
We accomplished a lot. |
| 00:50:22 |
I said, "What about accidents? |
| 00:50:25 |
"Oh, yes, we'll get you |
| 00:50:32 |
There were about 40,000 deaths |
| 00:50:38 |
...and about a million, |
| 00:50:41 |
I said, "What causes it?" |
| 00:50:43 |
It's human error |
| 00:50:46 |
I said, " If it's mechanical, |
| 00:50:49 |
If it's mechanical failure, |
| 00:50:52 |
Well, he said, "There's really |
| 00:50:55 |
I said, " Damn it, find out |
| 00:50:58 |
"The only place we can find |
| 00:51:01 |
...is Cornell Aeronautical Labs. " |
| 00:51:04 |
They said, |
| 00:51:06 |
They said, "You buy eggs and you |
| 00:51:09 |
I said, " I don't buy eggs. |
| 00:51:11 |
They said, "Well, you ask her, |
| 00:51:15 |
...on the drain board when she gets |
| 00:51:19 |
I asked Marg and she said no. |
| 00:51:21 |
Cornell said, "That's because |
| 00:51:24 |
Now, if we packaged people in cars |
| 00:51:28 |
...we could reduce the breakage. " |
| 00:51:39 |
We lacked lab facilities, |
| 00:51:42 |
...in different packages, down the |
| 00:51:49 |
Well, that sounds absurd, |
| 00:51:55 |
It was packaging |
| 00:52:07 |
In a crash, the driver was often |
| 00:52:13 |
The passenger was often injured |
| 00:52:19 |
...or the header bar, |
| 00:52:24 |
So in the 1956 model Ford |
| 00:52:28 |
...that prevented being impaled. |
| 00:52:31 |
...padded instrument panels, |
| 00:52:36 |
We estimated if there would be |
| 00:52:39 |
...we could save 20-odd thousand |
| 00:52:44 |
Everybody was opposed to it. |
| 00:52:53 |
You couldn't get people |
| 00:52:56 |
But those who did saved their lives. |
| 00:53:17 |
Now, let me jump ahead. |
| 00:53:27 |
It's July, 1960. |
| 00:53:32 |
John Bugas, vice president, |
| 00:53:35 |
...clearly had his eyes on |
| 00:53:38 |
I'm the group vice president in charge |
| 00:53:43 |
Henry was a night owl. |
| 00:53:46 |
You know, it's 2 a. m. Or something. |
| 00:53:48 |
He said, " Come up, have a nightcap. " |
| 00:53:51 |
John said, " I'll come up, Henry. " |
| 00:53:56 |
He said, " Bob, come on up. " |
| 00:53:59 |
That's when he asked me |
| 00:54:04 |
I was the first president in the history |
| 00:54:08 |
...that had ever been president other |
| 00:54:12 |
And after five weeks, I quit. |
| 00:54:27 |
The telephone rang... |
| 00:54:28 |
...a person comes on and says: |
| 00:54:31 |
My brother, Jack Kennedy, |
| 00:54:34 |
...to meet our brother- in-law, |
| 00:54:37 |
Four o'clock, Sarge comes in. |
| 00:54:40 |
And he said, " I've been authorized |
| 00:54:44 |
...Jack Kennedy, to offer you the |
| 00:54:49 |
"You're crazy. |
| 00:54:51 |
...but I'm not qualified |
| 00:54:53 |
"Anticipating you might say that, |
| 00:54:56 |
...authorized me to offer you |
| 00:54:59 |
" I was in World War II for |
| 00:55:01 |
...but secretary of defense? |
| 00:55:04 |
He said, "Anticipating that... |
| 00:55:06 |
...would you do him the courtesy |
| 00:55:10 |
So I go home. I meet with Marg. |
| 00:55:13 |
If I could appoint every senior official |
| 00:55:17 |
...and if I was guaranteed |
| 00:55:19 |
...be part of that damn Washington |
| 00:55:22 |
She said, "Well, okay, why don't you |
| 00:55:26 |
...and if he'll accept those |
| 00:55:29 |
My total net worth at the time |
| 00:55:34 |
...but I had huge unfulfilled |
| 00:55:37 |
And I was one of the highest-paid |
| 00:55:41 |
And the future was brilliant. |
| 00:55:45 |
We had called our children in. |
| 00:55:47 |
Their life would be totally changed. |
| 00:55:51 |
The salary of a cabinet secretary then |
| 00:55:55 |
So we explained to the children... |
| 00:55:57 |
...they'd be giving up a few... |
| 00:56:01 |
Marg could care less. |
| 00:56:09 |
It was snowing. |
| 00:56:11 |
The Secret Service took me |
| 00:56:16 |
I can still see it. There's a loveseat... |
| 00:56:19 |
...two armchairs with a lamp table |
| 00:56:23 |
Jack Kennedy is sitting in one... |
| 00:56:25 |
...and Bobby Kennedy's sitting |
| 00:56:28 |
" Mr. President, it's absurd. |
| 00:56:33 |
" Look, Bob... " |
| 00:56:35 |
He said, " I don't think there's any |
| 00:56:41 |
Let's announce it now. |
| 00:56:44 |
So he wrote out the announcement, |
| 00:56:47 |
All of these television cameras |
| 00:56:53 |
That's how Marg learned |
| 00:56:55 |
It was on television, live. |
| 00:56:58 |
All right, why don't we do some |
| 00:57:03 |
I've asked Robert McNamara... |
| 00:57:05 |
...to assume the responsibilities |
| 00:57:09 |
And I'm glad and happy to say that |
| 00:57:14 |
Mr. McNamara leaves the presidency |
| 00:57:18 |
...at great personal sacrifice. |
| 00:57:21 |
That's the way it began. |
| 00:57:26 |
You know, it was a traumatic period. |
| 00:57:29 |
My wife probably got ulcers from it... |
| 00:57:31 |
...may even ultimately have died from |
| 00:57:34 |
It was very traumatic but... |
| 00:57:38 |
...they were some of the best years |
| 00:57:41 |
...and all members of my family |
| 00:57:44 |
It was terrific. |
| 00:57:57 |
October 2nd. |
| 00:57:59 |
I had returned from Vietnam. |
| 00:58:04 |
At that time, we had 16,000 |
| 00:58:10 |
I recommended to President Kennedy |
| 00:58:14 |
...that we establish a plan |
| 00:58:17 |
...of removing all of them within |
| 00:58:57 |
Kennedy announced we were going to |
| 00:59:01 |
...by the end of '65, going to take 1000 |
| 00:59:07 |
But there was a coup |
| 00:59:13 |
Diem was overthrown... |
| 00:59:16 |
...and he and his brother were killed. |
| 00:59:21 |
I was present with the President... |
| 00:59:24 |
...when together we received |
| 00:59:27 |
I've never seen him... |
| 00:59:30 |
...more upset. |
| 00:59:34 |
Kennedy and I had tremendous |
| 00:59:38 |
...he was the authority. |
| 00:59:41 |
And he was overthrown |
| 00:59:45 |
And Kennedy knew and I knew, |
| 00:59:48 |
...the U.S. Government was |
| 01:00:03 |
I was in my office in the Pentagon... |
| 01:00:08 |
...when the telephone rang |
| 01:00:13 |
The President had been shot |
| 01:00:20 |
Perhaps 45 minutes later, |
| 01:00:23 |
...and said the president |
| 01:00:27 |
Jackie would like me |
| 01:00:32 |
We took the body to the White House |
| 01:00:35 |
...and called the superintendent |
| 01:00:39 |
And he and I... |
| 01:00:44 |
...walked over those grounds. |
| 01:00:48 |
They're hauntingly beautiful grounds. |
| 01:00:53 |
White crosses, row and row. |
| 01:00:55 |
And finally I thought I'd found |
| 01:01:00 |
...the most beautiful spot |
| 01:01:04 |
I called Jackie at the White House... |
| 01:01:06 |
...and asked her to come out there. |
| 01:01:09 |
And that's where the president |
| 01:01:12 |
A park service ranger came up to me |
| 01:01:19 |
He had... |
| 01:01:24 |
...escorted President Kennedy |
| 01:01:28 |
...a few weeks before. |
| 01:01:29 |
And Kennedy said... |
| 01:01:32 |
...that was the most |
| 01:01:35 |
That's where he's buried. |
| 01:01:49 |
I will do my best. |
| 01:01:52 |
That is all I can do. |
| 01:01:55 |
I ask for your help... |
| 01:01:59 |
...and God's. |
| 01:04:49 |
Make no bones of this. |
| 01:04:51 |
Don't try to sweep this under the rug. |
| 01:04:54 |
We are at war in Vietnam. |
| 01:05:02 |
And yet the president... |
| 01:05:04 |
...and his secretary of defense |
| 01:05:08 |
...and misinform the American people, |
| 01:05:38 |
On August 2nd... |
| 01:05:40 |
...the destroyer Maddox reported it |
| 01:05:43 |
...by a North Vietnamese patrol boat. |
| 01:05:46 |
It was an act of aggression against us. |
| 01:05:50 |
I sent officials from the Defense |
| 01:05:54 |
...pieces of shells that were |
| 01:05:57 |
...as North Vietnamese |
| 01:06:00 |
So there was no question in my mind |
| 01:06:02 |
But, in any event, we didn't respond. |
| 01:06:06 |
And it was very difficult. |
| 01:06:08 |
It was difficult for the president. |
| 01:06:10 |
There were very, very senior people, |
| 01:06:13 |
" My God, this president is... " |
| 01:06:16 |
They didn't use the word "coward," |
| 01:06:20 |
..." He's not protecting |
| 01:06:34 |
Two days later the Maddox and |
| 01:06:38 |
...reported they were attacked. |
| 01:06:50 |
There were sonar soundings. |
| 01:06:53 |
Other indications of attack |
| 01:06:57 |
We spent 10 hours that day trying to |
| 01:07:02 |
At one point the commander said, |
| 01:07:07 |
Another point they said, |
| 01:07:09 |
Then finally, late in the day, |
| 01:07:11 |
"Yes, we're certain it happened. " |
| 01:07:15 |
So I reported this to Johnson, |
| 01:07:19 |
...there were bombing attacks |
| 01:07:38 |
Johnson said, |
| 01:07:41 |
I'm not gonna do it without |
| 01:07:44 |
And he put forward a resolution, |
| 01:07:47 |
...gave complete authority to |
| 01:07:52 |
The Tonkin Gulf Resolution. |
| 01:07:58 |
Now, let me go back |
| 01:09:08 |
It was just confusion. |
| 01:09:14 |
...that our judgment that we'd been |
| 01:09:20 |
It didn't happen. |
| 01:09:25 |
And the judgment that we'd been |
| 01:09:30 |
...which we'd made, was right. |
| 01:09:34 |
Although that was disputed |
| 01:09:38 |
So we were right once |
| 01:09:41 |
Ultimately, President Johnson |
| 01:09:45 |
...to what he thought |
| 01:09:47 |
It hadn't occurred, but that's irrelevant |
| 01:09:51 |
He authorized the attack on |
| 01:09:56 |
And his belief that it was |
| 01:10:01 |
...by the North Vietnamese political |
| 01:10:04 |
...to escalate the conflict... |
| 01:10:08 |
...and an indication they would |
| 01:10:16 |
We were wrong. |
| 01:10:18 |
But we had in our minds |
| 01:10:25 |
And it carried such heavy costs. |
| 01:10:37 |
We see incorrectly, or we see |
| 01:10:43 |
- We see what we want to believe. |
| 01:10:50 |
Belief and seeing. |
| 01:10:53 |
They're both often wrong. |
| 01:11:01 |
We Americans know, |
| 01:11:06 |
...the risk of spreading conflict. |
| 01:11:10 |
We still seek no wider war. |
| 01:11:34 |
We introduced " Rolling Thunder"... |
| 01:11:36 |
...which, over the years, became a |
| 01:11:42 |
Two to three times as many bombs |
| 01:11:45 |
...on Western Europe during |
| 01:12:07 |
This is not primarily |
| 01:12:10 |
It's a battle for the hearts and minds |
| 01:12:16 |
As a prerequisite, we must be able |
| 01:15:41 |
It was announced today that total |
| 01:15:45 |
...now number 4877 |
| 01:15:50 |
Secretary of Defense McNamara, on |
| 01:15:55 |
...has found some positive aspect |
| 01:15:58 |
The most vivid impression |
| 01:16:02 |
...that we've stopped losing the war. |
| 01:16:04 |
The North Vietnamese, we believe, |
| 01:16:08 |
Some of the men had a little training |
| 01:16:13 |
But it didn't prepare them for thick et |
| 01:16:17 |
...almost perpendicular cliffs, |
| 01:16:22 |
This has changed from a nasty little |
| 01:16:26 |
The Vietnamese are still doing most |
| 01:16:32 |
...but week after week, |
| 01:16:36 |
Now, America wins the wars that she |
| 01:16:42 |
And we have declared war |
| 01:16:47 |
If this little nation goes down the drain |
| 01:16:51 |
...ask yourself what's gonna happen |
| 01:17:36 |
Let me go back one moment. |
| 01:17:39 |
In the Cuban Missile Crisis, |
| 01:17:43 |
...I think we did put ourselves |
| 01:17:51 |
In the case of Vietnam, we didn't |
| 01:17:56 |
And there was total misunderstanding |
| 01:18:00 |
They believed we had simply replaced |
| 01:18:05 |
...and we were seeking to subject |
| 01:18:10 |
...to our colonial interests, |
| 01:18:16 |
And we, we saw Vietnam as |
| 01:18:21 |
Not what they saw it as, a civil war. |
| 01:18:36 |
There aren't many examples... |
| 01:18:41 |
...in which you bring |
| 01:18:46 |
...at the highest levels, |
| 01:18:52 |
I formed the hypothesis |
| 01:18:56 |
...achieved our objectives |
| 01:19:01 |
And I wanted to test that |
| 01:19:08 |
The former foreign minister |
| 01:19:12 |
...a wonderful man named Thach |
| 01:19:17 |
We were fighting for independence. |
| 01:19:23 |
We almost came to blows. |
| 01:19:29 |
" Do you mean to say it was |
| 01:19:33 |
...when you lost 3,400,000 |
| 01:19:38 |
...which on our population base is the |
| 01:19:42 |
What did you accomplish? |
| 01:19:44 |
You didn't get more than we were |
| 01:19:47 |
You could've had the whole damn |
| 01:19:53 |
" Mr. McNamara, you must never |
| 01:19:56 |
If you had, you'd know we weren't |
| 01:20:01 |
Didn't you know that? |
| 01:20:03 |
Don't you understand that we've been |
| 01:20:08 |
We were fighting for independence, |
| 01:20:12 |
We were determined to... |
| 01:20:13 |
...and no amount of bombing or U.S. |
| 01:20:35 |
What makes us omniscient? |
| 01:20:40 |
Have we a record of omniscience? |
| 01:20:48 |
We are the strongest nation |
| 01:20:52 |
I do not believe we should ever... |
| 01:20:54 |
...apply that economic, political |
| 01:21:00 |
If we had followed that rule in Vietnam, |
| 01:21:10 |
None of our allies supported us. |
| 01:21:13 |
Not Japan, not Germany, |
| 01:21:20 |
If we can't persuade nations |
| 01:21:24 |
...of the merit of our cause, |
| 01:21:38 |
Americans suffered the heaviest |
| 01:21:42 |
543 killed in action. Another 1247 |
| 01:21:48 |
The deaths raise the U.S. Total |
| 01:21:52 |
South Vietnamese put their losses |
| 01:21:57 |
Communist losses |
| 01:21:59 |
Contributing to those casualties has |
| 01:22:03 |
...of the Marine outpost |
| 01:22:05 |
There, the North Vietnamese have |
| 01:22:10 |
The military expects |
| 01:22:39 |
To what extent did you feel |
| 01:22:42 |
...or that you were an instrument |
| 01:22:48 |
Well, I don't think I felt either. |
| 01:22:51 |
I just felt that I was serving |
| 01:22:56 |
...who'd been elected |
| 01:22:58 |
And it was my responsibility |
| 01:23:03 |
...to carry out the office as he believed |
| 01:23:38 |
What is morally appropriate |
| 01:23:49 |
Let me give you an illustration. |
| 01:23:58 |
While I was secretary... |
| 01:24:02 |
...we used what's called |
| 01:24:06 |
A chemical that strips leaves |
| 01:24:11 |
After the war, it is claimed that |
| 01:24:16 |
...and it killed many individuals... |
| 01:24:19 |
...soldiers and civilians |
| 01:24:25 |
Were those who issued the approval |
| 01:24:31 |
Were they committing a crime |
| 01:24:36 |
Let's look at the law. |
| 01:24:38 |
Now, what kind of law |
| 01:24:41 |
...these chemicals are acceptable |
| 01:24:45 |
We don't have clear definitions |
| 01:24:47 |
I never in the world would have |
| 01:24:55 |
I'm not really sure I authorized |
| 01:24:58 |
But it certainly occurred, the use |
| 01:25:22 |
Norman Morrison was a Quaker. |
| 01:25:26 |
He was opposed to war, |
| 01:25:30 |
He came to the Pentagon, |
| 01:25:39 |
Burned himself to death |
| 01:25:45 |
He held a child in his arms, |
| 01:25:49 |
Passers-by shouted, "Save the child!" |
| 01:25:53 |
...out of his arms, and the child lived |
| 01:25:56 |
His wife issued |
| 01:26:00 |
" Human beings must stop killing |
| 01:26:06 |
And that's a belief that I shared. |
| 01:26:09 |
I shared it then and I believe it |
| 01:26:13 |
How much evil must we do |
| 01:26:18 |
We have certain ideals, |
| 01:26:22 |
Recognize that at times you will have |
| 01:26:34 |
I remember reading that |
| 01:26:38 |
...the mayor of Atlanta pleaded |
| 01:26:42 |
And Sherman essentially |
| 01:26:45 |
...just before he torched it |
| 01:26:48 |
"War is cruel. War is cruelty. " |
| 01:26:54 |
That was the way LeMay felt. |
| 01:26:56 |
He was trying to save the country. |
| 01:26:59 |
He was trying to save our nation. |
| 01:27:02 |
And in the process, he was prepared |
| 01:27:11 |
It's a very, very difficult position |
| 01:27:18 |
Morrison was one of those. |
| 01:27:28 |
50,000 people came to Washington |
| 01:27:37 |
About 20,000 of them marched |
| 01:27:46 |
The Pentagon is a very, very difficult |
| 01:27:51 |
We placed troops carrying rifles |
| 01:27:55 |
U.S. Marshals in front of the soldiers. |
| 01:28:00 |
But I told the president, |
| 01:28:04 |
...without my personal permission. |
| 01:28:07 |
And I wasn't gonna grant it. |
| 01:28:44 |
What effect did all of this dissent |
| 01:28:49 |
I mean, Norman Morrison is '65. |
| 01:28:52 |
Well, it was a very tense period. |
| 01:28:57 |
Very tense period for my family, |
| 01:29:04 |
How was your thinking changing |
| 01:29:09 |
I don't think my thinking |
| 01:29:12 |
We were in the Cold War. |
| 01:29:18 |
...activity. |
| 01:30:09 |
Some commentators have said the |
| 01:30:15 |
No, no. I think on the contrary... |
| 01:30:18 |
...as General Westmoreland |
| 01:30:21 |
...in recent weeks in Saigon, |
| 01:30:25 |
...the large-unit military operations |
| 01:30:28 |
...show very substantial progress. |
| 01:30:41 |
One of the lessons I learned early on: |
| 01:30:45 |
Never, never, never. |
| 01:30:48 |
Never say never. |
| 01:30:51 |
And secondly... |
| 01:30:53 |
...never answer the question |
| 01:30:57 |
Answer the question that you wish |
| 01:31:04 |
And quite frankly, I follow that rule. |
| 01:31:08 |
It's a very good rule. |
| 01:31:19 |
When you talk about the responsibility |
| 01:31:29 |
...whose responsibility is it? |
| 01:31:31 |
It's the president's responsibility. |
| 01:31:34 |
I don't want to fail to recognize... |
| 01:31:36 |
...the tremendous contribution |
| 01:31:40 |
I don't want to put the responsibility |
| 01:31:45 |
...but I do... I am inclined to believe |
| 01:31:49 |
...he would've made a difference. We |
| 01:31:58 |
Two very telling photographs. |
| 01:32:00 |
One of them has Johnson like this: |
| 01:32:04 |
You can just see him thinking, |
| 01:32:09 |
And this guy is trying to tell me |
| 01:32:12 |
...that I know is wrong |
| 01:32:16 |
But how the hell |
| 01:32:19 |
The other photograph, |
| 01:32:21 |
"Jesus Christ. I love this man, |
| 01:32:26 |
What am I gonna do?" |
| 01:32:29 |
Johnson couldn't persuade me, |
| 01:32:35 |
I had this enormous respect |
| 01:32:40 |
...to both Kennedy and Johnson. |
| 01:32:42 |
But at the end, Johnson and I |
| 01:32:47 |
And I said to a very close and dear |
| 01:32:52 |
" Even to this day, Kay, I don't know |
| 01:32:57 |
She said, "You're out of your mind. |
| 01:33:09 |
November 1, 1967. |
| 01:33:16 |
I presented a memo to Johnson |
| 01:33:19 |
"The course we're on is totally wrong. |
| 01:33:22 |
We've gotta change it. |
| 01:33:28 |
Cut back at what we're doing |
| 01:33:34 |
We gotta reduce the casualties," |
| 01:33:40 |
It was an extraordinarily |
| 01:33:43 |
And I took it to him. |
| 01:33:46 |
" Mr. President, nobody has seen this. |
| 01:33:48 |
Not Dean Rusk, not the chairman |
| 01:33:54 |
" I know that it may contain |
| 01:33:58 |
...that you do not agree with |
| 01:34:05 |
I never heard from him. |
| 01:34:13 |
Something had to give. |
| 01:34:22 |
There was a rumor I was facing |
| 01:34:24 |
...I was under such pressure |
| 01:34:30 |
I don't think that was the case at all. |
| 01:34:37 |
But it was a really traumatic departure. |
| 01:34:46 |
That's the way it ended. |
| 01:34:53 |
Except for one thing. |
| 01:34:57 |
He awarded me |
| 01:35:01 |
...in a very beautiful ceremony |
| 01:35:04 |
And he was very, very |
| 01:35:09 |
And I became so emotional, |
| 01:35:13 |
...respond. |
| 01:35:26 |
Mr. President... |
| 01:35:29 |
...I cannot find words... |
| 01:35:34 |
...to express what lies |
| 01:35:40 |
And I think I'd better respond |
| 01:35:54 |
And had I responded, |
| 01:35:58 |
" I know what many of you |
| 01:36:00 |
You're thinking this man |
| 01:36:03 |
You're thinking that he has |
| 01:36:08 |
You're thinking that... |
| 01:36:10 |
...he did not respond fully... |
| 01:36:14 |
...to the desires and wishes |
| 01:36:17 |
I wanna tell you you're wrong. " |
| 01:36:19 |
Of course he had |
| 01:36:24 |
No question about that. |
| 01:36:26 |
He didn't accept all the advice |
| 01:36:31 |
On several occasions, his associates |
| 01:36:37 |
He wasn't. |
| 01:36:41 |
People did not understand there were |
| 01:36:45 |
...that would carry the risk of war |
| 01:36:49 |
And he was determined to prevent it. |
| 01:36:56 |
I'm arguing that he had a reason |
| 01:37:05 |
And, of course, |
| 01:37:09 |
...Johnson concluded |
| 01:37:22 |
At this point, how many Americans |
| 01:37:27 |
About 25,000. Less than half... |
| 01:37:32 |
...of the number |
| 01:38:38 |
Historians don't really like |
| 01:38:43 |
...with what might have been. |
| 01:38:52 |
They want to talk about history. |
| 01:38:55 |
" How the hell do you know, |
| 01:38:59 |
Who knows?" |
| 01:39:02 |
Well, I know certain things. |
| 01:39:14 |
What I'm doing is thinking it through |
| 01:39:17 |
But you don't have hindsight |
| 01:39:20 |
I'm very proud |
| 01:39:23 |
And I'm very sorry that in the process |
| 01:39:55 |
We all make mistakes. |
| 01:39:59 |
We know we make mistakes. |
| 01:40:05 |
I don't know any military commander |
| 01:40:08 |
...who would say he has not |
| 01:40:15 |
There's a wonderful phrase: |
| 01:40:18 |
"The fog of war. " |
| 01:40:22 |
What "the fog of war" means is: |
| 01:40:24 |
War is so complex it's beyond |
| 01:40:29 |
...to comprehend |
| 01:40:33 |
Our judgment, our understanding, |
| 01:40:40 |
And we kill people unnecessarily. |
| 01:40:47 |
Wilson said, |
| 01:41:02 |
I'm not so naive or simplistic |
| 01:41:10 |
We're not gonna change |
| 01:41:24 |
It isn't that we aren't rational. |
| 01:41:28 |
But reason has limits. |
| 01:41:48 |
There's a quote from T.S. Eliot |
| 01:41:54 |
"We shall not cease from exploring... |
| 01:41:58 |
...and at the end of our exploration, |
| 01:42:04 |
...and know the place |
| 01:42:08 |
Now that's, in a sense, |
| 01:42:28 |
After you left |
| 01:42:32 |
...why didn't you speak out |
| 01:42:39 |
I'm not going to say any more |
| 01:42:43 |
These are the kinds of questions |
| 01:42:47 |
You don't know what I know about how |
| 01:42:58 |
A lot of people |
| 01:43:02 |
...misunderstand me. |
| 01:43:06 |
A lot of people think |
| 01:43:10 |
Do you feel in any way |
| 01:43:13 |
Do you feel guilty? |
| 01:43:16 |
I don't want to go into |
| 01:43:18 |
It just opens up more controversy. |
| 01:43:23 |
I don't wanna add anything |
| 01:43:25 |
It is so complex that anything I say... |
| 01:43:27 |
...will require additions |
| 01:43:35 |
Is it the feeling that you're |
| 01:43:38 |
...and if you don't, |
| 01:43:40 |
Yeah, that's right. |
| 01:43:45 |
And I would rather be |
| 01:43:49 |
Subtitles by SDI Media Group |
| 01:43:54 |
Synchro by Laukas |
| 01:43:58 |
>> Napisy pobrane z http://napisy. org << |
